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Re: Those who never Heard the Message

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:07 pm
by neo-x
Philip wrote:The problem with debating Neo utilizing Scripture is that it appears there is so much of what it says that he doesn't believe is true or is actually God's word.
The problem is you are side tracking. I have not said one single time in this thread that you argument is wrong because I think scripture is false or I don't believe it. So I suggest we get back to the point. You don't know my heart so don't try to judge me based on your limited info. You only know what I have told you.

So from what I gathered you think that the Christian personal God, namely Jesus is apparent in nature even if one never heard of the gospel and that is excuse enough which you think the Romans' reference points to?

Re: Those who never Heard the Message

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:18 pm
by neo-x
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Philip wrote:The problem with debating Neo utilizing Scripture is that it appears there is so much of what it says that he doesn't believe is true or is actually God's word.
It seems that we are witnessing someone drifting away from faith in God towards something else. Or, maybe all neo ever had was religion...

Hopefully, this is only a trial he's going through.

FL y~o)
FL, I really want to know what have you been reading which has made you so oblivious to the simple truth about God? unlike you, I am not talking about your entire faith, just tid bit of what we are discussing here. Namely those who never heard the gospel will be punished? Do you absolutely believe that and with that I also push to you the question I gave to phillip.

If you can, kindly remark on those.

Re: Those who never Heard the Message

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:55 am
by Storyteller
y[-o<
neo-x wrote:
Storyteller wrote:
neo-x wrote:I think its impossible to have faith in a God you haven't heard of.
Why?

Isn't it possible to feel Him in your heart? I always believed in something. I just never knew it was God. And, to be fair, there are very few people that have not heard of God anyway.

In the case of very small children I think again, God knows what is in their hearts and whether they would reject Him.
Yes true you can feel the notion of a creator but he is/not the personal God you know as Jesus unless you heard the gospel. That way all you can have is an abstract vague idea of a mighty creator but faith in a mighty creator doesn't save anyone, only Christ does that.

And in case of small children and if what others here are saying is true than small children, by logic, should go to hell since they never had a chance to hear the gospel at all and Christ is the only way. And this is by no means a slam dunk, I just think people should have the guts to accept the logical conclusions to their ideas, even if those conclusion are horrible, like in this case.

I absolutely agree that only Christ saves but I am convinced that God will have thought of all the problems that may arise. Maybe those who haven't, or won't, hear the gospel would have rejected God anyway? Maybe they get to make their decision when they meet God?
As for small children I cannot see God condemning them for something they don't know of. Maybe children have a kind of special pass? Again, I think a large part of it comes down to rwhat is in your heart. Isn't there a passage where Jesus says something about entering the Kingdom of Heaven like a chlild?

I don't know, neo, maybe it does all hinge on hearing the gospel but personally I think God will have a plan for all those who haven't heard it, and I can't see that being automatically damnation.

Re: Those who never Heard the Message

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:04 am
by Storyteller
ps. God is most definitely evident in nature. I saw Him in nature which is why I started looking harder for Him. Maybe, neo, that's deliberate. Maybe that's God's safety net for those who haven't heard the gospel.
I honestly believe that everyone who wants to find God will, having heard the gospel or not.

Re: Those who never Heard the Message

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:56 am
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
neo-x wrote:FL, I really want to know what have you been reading which has made you so oblivious to the simple truth about God? unlike you, I am not talking about your entire faith, just tid bit of what we are discussing here. Namely those who never heard the gospel will be punished? Do you absolutely believe that and with that I also push to you the question I gave to phillip.
Do you know what the Bible says about those who truly search for God? Is your faith so bankrupt that you do not trust God to honour His promise to these people?

FL y~o)

Re: Those who never Heard the Message

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:40 am
by B. W.
neo-x wrote:
B. W. wrote:Neo, suggest you listen to the sermon link I posted from...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =2&t=40094
Could you please be specific which part i should, as there are 5 parts?
all...
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Re: Those who never Heard the Message

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:02 am
by B. W.
neo-x wrote:
B. W. wrote:Neo, suggest you listen to the sermon link I posted from...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =2&t=40094
I listened to the sermon. I don't get the point you wanted to pick up from it. Was it the "being liberal" christian, adding your own beliefs going against the Bible, Bible being offensive and all? Unless that is what you think I am doing here, I missed the other point if that is what you intended. Can you be clear please. Thank you.
You mean you do not see it yet?

And you then stated this...
neo-x wrote:Yes true you can feel the notion of a creator but he is/not the personal God you know as Jesus unless you heard the gospel. That way all you can have is an abstract vague idea of a mighty creator but faith in a mighty creator doesn't save anyone, only Christ does that.

And in case of small children and if what others here are saying is true than small children, by logic, should go to hell since they never had a chance to hear the gospel at all and Christ is the only way. And this is by no means a slam dunk, I just think people should have the guts to accept the logical conclusions to their ideas, even if those conclusion are horrible, like in this case.

....FL, I really want to know what have you been reading which has made you so oblivious to the simple truth about God? unlike you, I am not talking about your entire faith, just tid bit of what we are discussing here. Namely those who never heard the gospel will be punished? Do you absolutely believe that and with that I also push to you the question I gave to phillip.

If you can, kindly remark on those
Your claim is based upon those not hearing as being innocently sinless so that that they should by right of God's love be allowed into heaven.

The CD sermon message addressed this: NO ONE is innocently sinless, no not one.

What part of that do you not understand?

Again, it is written:

Job 34:21,22,23, "For His eyes are on the ways of man, And He sees all his steps. 22 There is no darkness nor shadow of death Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves. 23 For He need not further consider a man, That he should go before God in judgment." NASB

God is all knowing and foreknows before anyone was ever born who will reject and who will not reject his free offer of reconciling Grace so much so that he can place people wherever geographically in life as best suited for them. Those that never hear the gospel their response is foreknown by God that they will never accept him at all and he can do with them as he so wills. God is big enough to send folks to these people, verify their rejection as true, and move on. Those who do not hear are just as sin ridden and corrupt as anyone else is. You and others may not like the answer but God does indeed know best.
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Re: Those who never Heard the Message

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:29 am
by Storyteller
BW?

Sorry if I am missing something here, I just want to be clear.

So, those that don`t hear the gospel are the ones that God knows would reject Him anyway? Why do we preach the gospel then? In the hope that some may change their mind?

I swear I am not being obtuse, I`m just trying to get my head around this and understand it all.

Re: Those who never Heard the Message

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:39 am
by neo-x
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
neo-x wrote:FL, I really want to know what have you been reading which has made you so oblivious to the simple truth about God? unlike you, I am not talking about your entire faith, just tid bit of what we are discussing here. Namely those who never heard the gospel will be punished? Do you absolutely believe that and with that I also push to you the question I gave to phillip.
Do you know what the Bible says about those who truly search for God? Is your faith so bankrupt that you do not trust God to honour His promise to these people?

FL y~o)
Really is that what they teach you? I asked you repeatedly where do you get this kind of teaching? We should stop evangelism then I suppose. God will keep his promise either way would't he? Or do you doubt that?

Re: Those who never Heard the Message

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:53 am
by neo-x
B. W. wrote:
neo-x wrote:
B. W. wrote:Neo, suggest you listen to the sermon link I posted from...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =2&t=40094
I listened to the sermon. I don't get the point you wanted to pick up from it. Was it the "being liberal" christian, adding your own beliefs going against the Bible, Bible being offensive and all? Unless that is what you think I am doing here, I missed the other point if that is what you intended. Can you be clear please. Thank you.
You mean you do not see it yet?

And you then stated this...
neo-x wrote:Yes true you can feel the notion of a creator but he is/not the personal God you know as Jesus unless you heard the gospel. That way all you can have is an abstract vague idea of a mighty creator but faith in a mighty creator doesn't save anyone, only Christ does that.

And in case of small children and if what others here are saying is true than small children, by logic, should go to hell since they never had a chance to hear the gospel at all and Christ is the only way. And this is by no means a slam dunk, I just think people should have the guts to accept the logical conclusions to their ideas, even if those conclusion are horrible, like in this case.

....FL, I really want to know what have you been reading which has made you so oblivious to the simple truth about God? unlike you, I am not talking about your entire faith, just tid bit of what we are discussing here. Namely those who never heard the gospel will be punished? Do you absolutely believe that and with that I also push to you the question I gave to phillip.

If you can, kindly remark on those
Your claim is based upon those not hearing as being innocently sinless so that that they should by right of God's love be allowed into heaven.

The CD sermon message addressed this: NO ONE is innocently sinless, no not one.

What part of that do you not understand?


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I never actually claimed anything like that. What I asked you was, that those who never heard the gospel can never be saved and its not their own fault?

Obviously all have sinned, but that is not the issue here, the issue is who gets the chance to be saved? First there is no scripture base on which this conjecture of yours could stand on, see highlighted below.
Again, it is written:

Job 34:21,22,23, "For His eyes are on the ways of man, And He sees all his steps. 22 There is no darkness nor shadow of death Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves. 23 For He need not further consider a man, That he should go before God in judgment." NASB

God is all knowing and foreknows before anyone was ever born who will reject and who will not reject his free offer of reconciling Grace so much so that he can place people wherever geographically in life as best suited for them. Those that never hear the gospel their response is foreknown by God that they will never accept him at all and he can do with them as he so wills. God is big enough to send folks to these people, verify their rejection as true, and move on. Those who do not hear are just as sin ridden and corrupt as anyone else is. You and others may not like the answer but God does indeed know best.
How can you support that from scripture? It not even remotely close. Infact now you are bordering on calvinism or else being just plain wrong. If God knows and places people before hand who will reject him then by making them nonetheless, he is purposefully sending them to hell for no reason except his whim. Why make a defected person when you know he is going straight to hell?

The problem is not of my liking, the problem is, the God I know is not like that at all.

And the other problem returns again and I will put that to you to see how you fit that in, by your logic then, small children who die before having any idea of what really entails spiritually, some of them are indeed destined to hell then, for God would already know who would reject his offer and those children who if they grew up and rejected the gospel go straight to hell, without hearing the gospel or having the chance to respond? do you agree?

Further more, consider Peter, Christ tells him he will deny him three times and Christ also know that Judas will betray him, but when it comes to Abraham God tells him to offer Isaac up, if God already knew Abraham would do it then why call Abe out on it and then why say "Now I know you fear God".

Then when Israel battles, Joshua and Caleb puts Moses' hands in air and they do that so Israel could win, if his hands dropped Israel losses. So Did God knew Israel would win or did it depend on Moses how he decided it?

Did God knew Abe would plead for soddom and gommorah, obviously he knew there weren't even ten good people in those cities but he still doesn't tell abe that, less they be spared?

Do you think God knew Jesus would do as he was supposed to do or that some of the choice was with Jesus too, could Jesus stop and go back? Was it possible, potentially? I mean Jesus on earth wasn't omni potent, nor did he know everything. Infact he told his disciples that some of the things only His Fathers secret and Jesus did not know about those. In simple words did God knew what would happen or did he wait and verified Jesus to fulfill his obedience?

Further why would God need to re-verify someone choice, as you said before, when God knows they reject it? Is there are problem with God's foreknowledge, does he doubt it himself? Isn't it absolute and perfect? ofcourse not, and...then there is no need to verify anyone's position at all. But you seem to suggest the opposite.

Re: Those who never Heard the Message

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:54 am
by Storyteller
neo-x wrote:
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
neo-x wrote:FL, I really want to know what have you been reading which has made you so oblivious to the simple truth about God? unlike you, I am not talking about your entire faith, just tid bit of what we are discussing here. Namely those who never heard the gospel will be punished? Do you absolutely believe that and with that I also push to you the question I gave to phillip.
Do you know what the Bible says about those who truly search for God? Is your faith so bankrupt that you do not trust God to honour His promise to these people?

FL y~o)
Really is that what they teach you? I asked you repeatedly where do you get this kind of teaching? We should stop evangelism then I suppose. God will keep his promise either way would't he? Or do you doubt that?
I am struggling with this too neo. If God places people in the best place for them and that includes placing people somewhere where they won't hear the gospel, because He knows that they will reject Him, well, why evangelise? I don't get it but then you have the promise seek and you shall find. Maybe the point is to reach as many people as we can in the hope that they will reach out to God.

Re: Those who never Heard the Message

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:54 am
by neo-x
Storyteller wrote:BW?

Sorry if I am missing something here, I just want to be clear.

So, those that don`t hear the gospel are the ones that God knows would reject Him anyway? Why do we preach the gospel then? In the hope that some may change their mind?

I swear I am not being obtuse, I`m just trying to get my head around this and understand it all.
These are very good questions. I hope you keep your head open for this.

Re: Those who never Heard the Message

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:57 am
by Storyteller
I keep both my head and heart open, always.

Re: Those who never Heard the Message

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:58 am
by neo-x
Storyteller wrote:
neo-x wrote:
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
neo-x wrote:FL, I really want to know what have you been reading which has made you so oblivious to the simple truth about God? unlike you, I am not talking about your entire faith, just tid bit of what we are discussing here. Namely those who never heard the gospel will be punished? Do you absolutely believe that and with that I also push to you the question I gave to phillip.
Do you know what the Bible says about those who truly search for God? Is your faith so bankrupt that you do not trust God to honour His promise to these people?

FL y~o)
Really is that what they teach you? I asked you repeatedly where do you get this kind of teaching? We should stop evangelism then I suppose. God will keep his promise either way would't he? Or do you doubt that?
I am struggling with this too neo. If God places people in the best place for them and that includes placing people somewhere where they won't hear the gospel, because He knows that they will reject Him, well, why evangelise? I don't get it but then you have the promise seek and you shall find. Maybe the point is to reach as many people as we can in the hope that they will reach out to God.
You have asked good questions. Because we are saved most people feel comfortable rationalizing such practices on God's behalf but its so unnatural to the God we see through Christ. And so I struggle with these too.

What some here don't realize is that they are just unconsciously, I hope, smuggling in TULIP in one form or another. This doesn't help at all. That just puts the onus and blame back on God, whether they like it or not.

Re: Those who never Heard the Message

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:34 am
by Storyteller
What's TULIP?