Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:The link below is a little long, but I think it makes some good points pertaining to this discussion.
http://www.equip.org/article/is-there-s ... an-books-1

I am not saying he is saved after death, he was already saved before death, like I have said it is more of a heart attitude than a intellectual understanding.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:I found this quote from Paul from another thread (hope you don't mind Paul) this is what I feel about the heart condition

PaulSacramento wrote:Hell is populated by people that would rather be THERE than to worship God.
It isn't about even believing in God since the devil and his angels believe also.
It is about choosing to NOT worship God, they choose to reject God.

So lets say a Muslim dies being a Muslim and never understood the sacrifice that Christ made for him and when faced with the truth, he fell to his knees and repented and asked Jesus to speak on his behalf, I think God is merciful and compassionate and would wrap him up in his loving embrace.

That's how I feel about it, Yes Jesus is the ONLY way, but how that happens is open to possibilities, I believe anyway.

I can appreciate the view and have suggested similar things in the past.

Hidden behind such sentiments are feelings like "but there are other good people."
Jac early dealt with this and I'd largely support his words.

Christianity is not about our goodness, nor our sincerity, nor generally living a "good" life or some such.

So then your situation could be equally applied to Hitler, or an ISIS leader who had beheaded many men, women and kids in Allah's name.
They fall to their knees and repent and ask Jesus to speak on their behalf.
When would Jesus' words, "Depart from me for I never knew you" ever be true?

There is a line in the sand that I see God draws on His gift.
All emphasis in Scripture is placed upon coming to a decision in this life.

When we die, things may not be, as dynamic -- with an ability to change.
There is a reason why angels cannot repent, right?

It really seems to me that the moment we die is the moment the cement sets.
So if we are hardened against God, haven't accepted Christ "into our heart", then we can only wait for God's judgement.

Given this, I will always out of love (not hate) stress on coming to a decision in this life.
Scripture does, and indeed even Christ Himself does as recorded in Scripture.
And as Scripture is the source of my spiritual beliefs re: Christ, I can't discard this or that as I feel.
To do so would be to create a religion of my own making. One that might ignore all the necessary things you know?
Like I want to fly so why not? But the reality is I don't have wings.
Wouldn't it be nice though?

Kurieuo wrote: I can appreciate the view and have suggested similar things in the past.

Hidden behind such sentiments are feelings like "but there are other good people."
Jac early dealt with this and I'd largely support his words.

It's not what I think, I don't think goodness has anything to do with it.

Christianity is not about our goodness, nor our sincerity, nor generally living a "good" life or some such.

Agreed

So then your situation could be equally applied to Hitler, or an ISIS leader who had beheaded many men, women and kids in Allah's name.
They fall to their knees and repent and ask Jesus to speak on their behalf.
When would Jesus' words, "Depart from me for I never knew you" ever be true?

If Jesus didn't know them then they obviously didn't have a heart for God, unfortunately I think that many "Christians" will find out they didn't have a heart for God.

There is a line in the sand that I see God draws on His gift.
All emphasis in Scripture is placed upon coming to a decision in this life.

Agreed

When we die, things may not be, as dynamic -- with an ability to change.
There is a reason why angels cannot repent, right?

agreed

It really seems to me that the moment we die is the moment the cement sets.
So if we are hardened against God, haven't accepted Christ "into our heart", then we can only wait for God's judgement.

So who is to say that a Muslim hasn't accepted Jesus into his heart, just because he doesn't know him intellectually doesn't mean he doesn't know him.

Given this, I will always out of love (not hate) stress on coming to a decision in this life.
Scripture does, and indeed even Christ Himself does as recorded in Scripture.
And as Scripture is the source of my spiritual beliefs re: Christ, I can't discard this or that as I feel.
To do so would be to create a religion of my own making. One that might ignore all the necessary things you know?
Like I want to fly so why not? But the reality is I don't have wings.
Wouldn't it be nice though?

I believe you can know Christ without scripture, even scripture says so, it says that everyone is without excuse, so you must be able to know Christ apart from scripture.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

RickD wrote:The link below is a little long, but I think it makes some good points pertaining to this discussion.
http://www.equip.org/article/is-there-s ... an-books-1

I am not saying he is saved after death, he was already saved before death, like I have said it is more of a heart attitude than a intellectual understanding.

Could it be possible that the "heart attitude" can come after the intellectual understanding?

In other words, trust in Christ because you've come to an intellectual understanding that He is who He says He is, then God does the "change of heart attitude" in a believer.

It's good that we do seem to agree on a lot.
But, rather perhaps placing our emphasis in different areas.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Given this, I will always out of love (not hate) stress on coming to a decision in this life.
Scripture does, and indeed even Christ Himself does as recorded in Scripture.
And as Scripture is the source of my spiritual beliefs re: Christ, I can't discard this or that as I feel.
To do so would be to create a religion of my own making. One that might ignore all the necessary things you know?
Like I want to fly so why not? But the reality is I don't have wings.
Wouldn't it be nice though?

I believe you can know Christ without scripture, even scripture says so, it says that everyone is without excuse, so you must be able to know Christ apart from scripture.

Yes, but what I'm here saying is without Scripture, then we wouldn't know many spiritual truths that we claim to know. Right?
Any discussion here would become mute.

Kureiuo wrote:
Yes, but what I'm here saying is without Scripture, then we wouldn't know many spiritual truths that we claim to know. Right?
Any discussion here would become mute.

But to me, this discussion is already mute(without sound), because it's on a silent computer screen.

But since you already know that, it's a moot point.

RickD wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

RickD wrote:The link below is a little long, but I think it makes some good points pertaining to this discussion.
http://www.equip.org/article/is-there-s ... an-books-1

I am not saying he is saved after death, he was already saved before death, like I have said it is more of a heart attitude than a intellectual understanding.

Could it be possible that the "heart attitude" can come after the intellectual understanding?

In other words, trust in Christ because you've come to an intellectual understanding that He is who He says He is, then God does the "change of heart attitude" in a believer.

I don't believe you could ever make a positive affirmation of your own sinfulness and desire to follow Christ without having a correct heart condition first.

Kurieuo wrote:It's good that we do seem to agree on a lot.
But, rather perhaps placing our emphasis in different areas.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Given this, I will always out of love (not hate) stress on coming to a decision in this life.
Scripture does, and indeed even Christ Himself does as recorded in Scripture.
And as Scripture is the source of my spiritual beliefs re: Christ, I can't discard this or that as I feel.
To do so would be to create a religion of my own making. One that might ignore all the necessary things you know?
Like I want to fly so why not? But the reality is I don't have wings.
Wouldn't it be nice though?

I believe you can know Christ without scripture, even scripture says so, it says that everyone is without excuse, so you must be able to know Christ apart from scripture.

Yes, but what I'm here saying is without Scripture, then we wouldn't know many spiritual truths that we claim to know. Right?
Any discussion here would become mute.

What spiritual truths are we talking about exactly? Man sinfulness? I think that is plainly evident from the natural world. Man's inability to be perfect? I think that is also plainly evident. Man need a saviour? That also is plainly evident. Man needs God? I think that is also plainly evident.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

RickD wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

RickD wrote:The link below is a little long, but I think it makes some good points pertaining to this discussion.
http://www.equip.org/article/is-there-s ... an-books-1

I am not saying he is saved after death, he was already saved before death, like I have said it is more of a heart attitude than a intellectual understanding.

Could it be possible that the "heart attitude" can come after the intellectual understanding?

In other words, trust in Christ because you've come to an intellectual understanding that He is who He says He is, then God does the "change of heart attitude" in a believer.

I don't believe you could ever make a positive affirmation of your own sinfulness and desire to follow Christ without having a correct heart condition first.

And many 5pt Calvinists would agree. But that's best left for another discussion.

RickD wrote:

Kureiuo wrote:
Yes, but what I'm here saying is without Scripture, then we wouldn't know many spiritual truths that we claim to know. Right?
Any discussion here would become mute.

But to me, this discussion is already mute(without sound), because it's on a silent computer screen.

But since you already know that, it's a moot point.

Gramma Nazi.

RickD wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

RickD wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

RickD wrote:The link below is a little long, but I think it makes some good points pertaining to this discussion.
http://www.equip.org/article/is-there-s ... an-books-1

I am not saying he is saved after death, he was already saved before death, like I have said it is more of a heart attitude than a intellectual understanding.

Could it be possible that the "heart attitude" can come after the intellectual understanding?

In other words, trust in Christ because you've come to an intellectual understanding that He is who He says He is, then God does the "change of heart attitude" in a believer.

I don't believe you could ever make a positive affirmation of your own sinfulness and desire to follow Christ without having a correct heart condition first.

And many 5pt Calvinists would agree. But that's best left for another discussion.

Please don't tell me I am a Calvinist.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

RickD wrote:

Kureiuo wrote:
Yes, but what I'm here saying is without Scripture, then we wouldn't know many spiritual truths that we claim to know. Right?
Any discussion here would become mute.

But to me, this discussion is already mute(without sound), because it's on a silent computer screen.

But since you already know that, it's a moot point.

Gramma Nazi.

I think you mean "grammar".

I must go. I think I've done my share of derailing threads with poor jokes today.

RickD wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

RickD wrote:

Kureiuo wrote:
Yes, but what I'm here saying is without Scripture, then we wouldn't know many spiritual truths that we claim to know. Right?
Any discussion here would become mute.

But to me, this discussion is already mute(without sound), because it's on a silent computer screen.

But since you already know that, it's a moot point.

Gramma Nazi.

I think you mean "grammar".

I must go. I think I've done my share of derailing threads with poor jokes today.

Now your the typo Nazi, shame on me for not proof reading.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:It's good that we do seem to agree on a lot.
But, rather perhaps placing our emphasis in different areas.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Given this, I will always out of love (not hate) stress on coming to a decision in this life.
Scripture does, and indeed even Christ Himself does as recorded in Scripture.
And as Scripture is the source of my spiritual beliefs re: Christ, I can't discard this or that as I feel.
To do so would be to create a religion of my own making. One that might ignore all the necessary things you know?
Like I want to fly so why not? But the reality is I don't have wings.
Wouldn't it be nice though?

I believe you can know Christ without scripture, even scripture says so, it says that everyone is without excuse, so you must be able to know Christ apart from scripture.

Yes, but what I'm here saying is without Scripture, then we wouldn't know many spiritual truths that we claim to know. Right?
Any discussion here would become mute.

What spiritual truths are we talking about exactly? Man sinfulness? I think that is plainly evident from the natural world. Man's inability to be perfect? I think that is also plainly evident. Man need a saviour? That also is plainly evident. Man needs God? I think that is also plainly evident.

You know things like, God actually made a Way, rather than walking Away.
That God actually desires to have a relationship with us.
That it is possible for an all-good God to have a relationship with us without impugning himself...
That there is even an afterlife available to us... heaven... hell...
Many spiritual truths that Christians take for granted.

Kurieuo wrote: You know things like, God actually made a Way, rather than walking Away.

This one is why I still feel evangelism is vitally important. But is that knowledge necessary for salvation, does everyone require that sort of knowledge for salvation? To me the one who hears and accepts Jesus' as Lord and saviour was already saved before they heard, the one who rejects Jesus was already damned before they heard.

That God actually desires to have a relationship with us.

I don't think that is exclusive to Christianity or Judaism, I mean how would Adam and Eve and their descendants know that God wanted a relationship with them, but yet they did and eventually formed a religion around that (Judaism). To me that says it is self evident, God works in all people's hearts, some just choose to ignore that.

That it is possible for an all-good God to have a relationship with us without impugning himself...
That there is even an afterlife available to us... heaven... hell...
Many spiritual truths that Christians take for granted.

I don't know if any of these ones are requirements for salvation, however it does bolster the importance of evangelism.

Reading back over this it does seem very Calvinistic, but I feel that freewill is still in action alongside God's sovereignty.