Yet *Another* Beginningless-Universe Model . . .

[RickD]

Jac wrote:
I hear you keep asking about why something physical can't be beginningless (sorry, I won't use the word eternal--they mean different things). Are you conceding that immaterial things can be beginningless? Is your question limited only to physical things?

I'm conceding things such as the number three, that you mentioned before.

I'm focusing only on the physical. And whether or not anything physical can be without beginning. With the law of entropy, for example, I just can't see it being possible.

And while we're at it, I think beginningless and eternal are interchangeable in this instance. If something is without beginning, it has to be constant or unchanging. And if it's unchanging, it must be eternal. Right?

And are you talking about a single thing or a series of things? The universe is not a single entity. Is is a collection of entities. When people suggest a beginningless universe, they are not saying that a single thing has always existed, but that there have always been things causing other things.

I don't think it matters for what I'm saying. I just can't think of anything physical, that doesn't have a cause of its existence. And if you're talking about a series of things, you're just kicking the can back in time. Still with the same issue of how that first thing came into existence.

[PaulSacramento]

Is energy physical or material ?

[RickD]

RickD wrote:
How can something physical be eternal? Unless you're suggesting pantheism(which I know you're not), I just can't see it.

PaulS wrote:
The universe is all the exists, according to some, so if God exists He must be somehow part of/related to the universe and He is BUT not as part of but as SUSTAIN-ER of.

According to some? Paul, you and I both know that God exists, or is existence. So again, unless you're saying God and the universe are one(Pantheism), that argument doesn't work.

PaulS wrote:
Whichever definition you may prefer, the point is that if you define the universe as the above then even if the universe is eternal, that has no baring on God because the only thing they would share is the nature ofbeing eternal.
God is still the sustainer and, as we know, since the universe is changing (expanding) then it can't be the unmoved mover, which is God.

If something shares something else's "nature" don't they have to be the same? Which gets back to Pantheism.
And again, as I mentioned to Jac, if something is changing(the universe) can it be eternal? God is unchanging and eternal. The universe shares that eternal nature with God, but it's changing? Doesn't sound like the same nature to me.

[RickD]

Is energy physical or material ?

Ask Hana. She's the genius physicist.

[Storyteller]

How about if the universe exists within God? Then the universe could be eternal, couldn't it?

[Danieltwotwenty]

Is energy physical or material ?

That is a great question, damned if I have an answer for it............................pure energy hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

If everything on the quantum level is just energy, nothing is really physical, we just have the illusion of the physical.

[Storyteller]

How about energy is light? So both physical and material.

As for the illusion of the physical, I read somewhere, the physical world exists because we percieve it to do so. So maybe all this is an illusion and the spiritual is the real.

[Danieltwotwenty]

How about energy is light? So both physical and material.

As for the illusion of the physical, I read somewhere, the physical world exists because we percieve it to do so. So maybe all this is an illusion and the spiritual is the real.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

[Storyteller]

Maybe we are given this physical ilusion so that we can find the spiritual again?
We can feel, think, reason, maybe so we can find our way back to God, back to the light?

No idea where im going with this btw, just pondering.

[RickD]

How about energy is light? So both physical and material.

As for the illusion of the physical, I read somewhere, the physical world exists because we percieve it to do so. So maybe all this is an illusion and the spiritual is the real.

You may be on to something.

Just the other day, I perceived that I had a million dollars and 3 Victoria's Secret models for wives. Then I realized that was a sad illusion.

[Storyteller]

That is a sad illusion

[dfnj]

That is a sad illusion

The idea that something is an illusion is also an illusion.

I will prove to you God exists. God is just a word. The word God exists in our written and spoken language. No one denies the existence of the word God.

If a tree falls down in the forest does it make a noise? No because without someone to hear the tree the forest does not exist. Without conscious thought to experience the Universe time does not exist. Prior to the written word being invented about 6000 years ago God, man, and the Universe did not exist. We are the Universe's way of experiencing itself. Without our words and our written language time, God, man, and the Universe do not exist. Without words and language we are just skunks incapable of smelling of our own stink. Words are created in the image of our own experiences without which we do not exist. And the word man is reflection of our experieces of the word God.

[RickD]

That is a sad illusion

The idea that something is an illusion is also an illusion.

I will prove to you God exists. God is just a word. The word God exists in our written and spoken language. No one denies the existence of the word God.

If a tree falls down in the forest does it make a noise? No because without someone to hear the tree the forest does not exist. Without conscious thought to experience the Universe time does not exist. Prior to the written word being invented about 6000 years ago God, man, and the Universe did not exist. We are the Universe's way of experiencing itself. Without our words and our written language time, God, man, and the Universe do not exist. Without words and language we are just skunks incapable of smelling of our own stink. Words are created in the image of our own experiences without which we do not exist. And the word man is reflection of our experieces of the word God.

[Silvertusk]

Well this one has gone viral = we have had 4 or 5 threads started on the CAA facbook page on it.

This is the response from Jeffrey A. Zweerink from Reasons To Believe:

Here are a few of my thoughts.

1. This does not violate the bulk of big bang cosmology in any way. What it specifically seeks to address is how to handle the earliest moments of the universe where general relativity (GR) breaks down (and where GR points to a singularity).
2. This is one of many different ways of approaching this problem. Others include string theory and loop quantum gravity.
3. We don't have the capacity to determine which approach best approximates the true model of quantum gravity (or if one even exists).
4. The last 125 years of cosmology history reveals many attempts to have an eternal physical realm. Thus far, all those attempts ended with the conclusion of a universe with a beginning in the finite past. My bet is that this approach (and its cousins) will ultimately reveal evidence for a universe with a genuine beginning.

So let's keep searching...

[Storyteller]

That is a sad illusion

The idea that something is an illusion is also an illusion.

I will prove to you God exists. God is just a word. The word God exists in our written and spoken language. No one denies the existence of the word God.

If a tree falls down in the forest does it make a noise? No because without someone to hear the tree the forest does not exist. Without conscious thought to experience the Universe time does not exist. Prior to the written word being invented about 6000 years ago God, man, and the Universe did not exist. We are the Universe's way of experiencing itself. Without our words and our written language time, God, man, and the Universe do not exist. Without words and language we are just skunks incapable of smelling of our own stink. Words are created in the image of our own experiences without which we do not exist. And the word man is reflection of our experieces of the word God.

Is the spiritual also an illusion?