Evidence for God from Science

I don't think I'm missing the point, Byblos. If I want to vaccinate my child against one or ten different diseases, then my child is vaccinated from that one or those ten diseases. She's not at risk except for those diseases I choose not to vaccinate her for. If I vaccinate her against all of them, she's not at risk. She's only at risk if I don't vaccinate. Likewise, she only puts other kids at risk for those diseases their parents choose not to vaccinate them against. So the point remains exactly the same.

On the flip side, I'm worried that the pro-mandate crowd is missing the point. What if my child just so happens to be one of the very ones that suffers a severe reaction? I don't care how rare it is. If my child suffers it, do you think telling me it's rare is going to make me feel better? How do we ethically tell X number of people that they WILL vaccinate their children when we know that a small portion of them WILL experience side effects? I don't care how small the proportion is. The pro-mandate crowd is taking the human element out of this, and that is what is really worrying me.

Of course, then we can get into slipperly slopes. If we can mandate vaccines, why not health insurance (oh wait). Why can't the government just start mandating anything they want to and claim "public safety" even if in doing so we know we are going to harm a portion of the public?

Sorry, if you are going to mandate something, you have, as far as I'm concerned, a VERY high bar to meet. And I'm far from sold that the vaccination debate comes anywhere near meeting that bar.

fdit: see Rick's post above!

Jac3510 wrote:I don't think I'm missing the point, Byblos. If I want to vaccinate my child against one or ten different diseases, then my child is vaccinated from that one or those ten diseases. She's not at risk except for those diseases I choose not to vaccinate her for. If I vaccinate her against all of them, she's not at risk. She's only at risk if I don't vaccinate. Likewise, she only puts other kids at risk for those diseases their parents choose not to vaccinate them against. So the point remains exactly the same.

On the flip side, I'm worried that the pro-mandate crowd is missing the point. What if my child just so happens to be one of the very ones that suffers a severe reaction? I don't care how rare it is. If my child suffers it, do you think telling me it's rare is going to make me feel better? How do we ethically tell X number of people that they WILL vaccinate their children when we know that a small portion of them WILL experience side effects? I don't care how small the proportion is. The pro-mandate crowd is taking the human element out of this, and that is what is really worrying me.

Of course, then we can get into slipperly slopes. If we can mandate vaccines, why not health insurance (oh wait). Why can't the government just start mandating anything they want to and claim "public safety" even if in doing so we know we are going to harm a portion of the public?

Sorry, if you are going to mandate something, you have, as far as I'm concerned, a VERY high bar to meet. And I'm far from sold that the vaccination debate comes anywhere near meeting that bar.

fdit: see Rick's post above!

I am in no way advocating mandatory vaccination and I readily admit I did not give the subject much thought. As a parent, though, I would want to protect my child and if vaccination affords such protection I'm all for it. The risk of a child contracting a deadly desease is much, much higher than the potential reactions to the vaccines.

Having said that, you have given me much to think about and research. Thank you both.

An interesting article on the subject thought I'd share.

Byblos wrote:An interesting article on the subject thought I'd share.

Byblos,

It is interesting. Here's why. The author has a lot of points that she assumes to be true, to make her point that people should vaccinate their children to keep hers safe.

Whether she actually studied the points she assumed to be true, I don't know. But I hope you will.

1)

Herd Immunity-Infants (and certain immune-compromised populations) can’t receive vaccines themselves, so they rely on what’s known as “herd immunity,” or “community protection,” which occurs when almost everyone else has been vaccinated, so the disease in question can’t get a foot in the door.

I'm not convinced(see this article) that herd immunity is not a flawed belief.

2)

“Failure to vaccinate is the primary reason for the re-emergence of measles in this ‘post-elimination’ era,” says Dr. Sammons.

Again, I'm not convinced that's true.

3)

It’s easy for me to get mad at parents who choose not to vaccinate. After all, the science on this issue is clear: Vaccines do not cause autism, according to 20 years of studies. Fewer than one in a million children experiences a serious allergic reaction to the measles vaccine. The CDC does report that one in 30,000 have developed a bleeding disorder, one in 3,000 may experience seizures, and more mild issues (low-grade fever, rash, swelling or stiffness) are more common. But vaccines are also responsible for preventing almost 6 million deaths worldwide every year. Meanwhile, in the pre-vaccine era, we saw an average of 48,000 hospitalizations and 500 deaths per year due to measles, notes Dr. Sammons. So why do nearly one in 10 Americans still believe that vaccines are unsafe? And why are these people taking the “free ride” tickets away from children like my daughter, who really need it?

First off, science is not clear that vaccines do not cause autism. Next, It may or may not be true that fewer than one in a million children experiences a serious allergic reaction to the measles vaccination. But what about the flu vaccination? To me, this one is the easiest. First off, even those who promote the flu shot, admit that it will not prevent the flu, if it's a different strain than the vaccination. And look at the ingredients in the flu vaccination. None of those toxins were meant to be injected into the human body. Maybe that's why Americans still believe vaccines are unsafe?


And this in particular gets to me. She ends the article by saying:

And because vaccinating your healthy child is something you can do to help keep my daughter, and so many other children, safe.

Do I feel bad that her child has the problems she has? Of course. But why do I need to do something that I feel puts my child's safety in jeopardy, just to keep her child safe. Why does my child mean less than hers? If her daughter's immune system is so compromised, she needs to take every precaution that she thinks is necessary for her safety.

My wife and I were only able to have one child. She lost at least 2 during pregnancies, and we were unable to conceive any more. My only child, according to his doctor, was a miracle that he made it to full term. The way he was attached in the womb, was as she described, barely hanging on. And she had no idea how he stayed attached, and alive for over 9 months. With that said, I need to do something that I believe may put my only child at risk, just because someone thinks it may protect her child?

And to those that say the risk of vaccination is so low that we shouldn't worry about it, I say, tell that to the parents of those children who have had life altering consequences or even death, as to what they believe was a direct consequence of vaccinations.

quotes taken from this link.

I wonder whether it is not possible to somehow test a person whether he/she will have strong reaction or not.

Story from my family. Around 40 year old man had a flu shot. Then was immobile, did not feel his legs. Now around after 3 years he can walk using crutches.

I would like to force government to do such tests. But you know, it is costly...

1over137 wrote:I wonder whether it is not possible to somehow test a person whether he/she will have strong reaction or not.

Story from my family. Around 40 year old man had a flu shot. Then was immobile, did not feel his legs. Now around after 3 years he can walk using crutches.

I would like to force government to do such tests. But you know, it is costly...

Hana,

That cannot be possible. THE FLU SHOT IS SAFE!!!!!

It should be voluntary.
I don't agree that ANY medical procedure, and vaccination is a medical procedure, should be mandatory UNLESS it is proven 100% necessary AND 100% safe.

PaulSacramento wrote:It should be voluntary.
I don't agree that ANY medical procedure, and vaccination is a medical procedure, should be mandatory UNLESS it is proven 100% necessary AND 100% safe.

There you go again with the proof thing, don't you know that's scientifically impossible?

Byblos wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:It should be voluntary.
I don't agree that ANY medical procedure, and vaccination is a medical procedure, should be mandatory UNLESS it is proven 100% necessary AND 100% safe.

There you go again with the proof thing, don't you know that's scientifically impossible?

I was wondering who would be the first to point that out !
LMAO !

For those interested:
http://www.naturalnews.com/047890_flu_v ... raud.html#

Hmm. I was out of work for an entire week. Doc said it was pneumonia--chest x-rays and such--but that has to come from something. I wonder if I didn't have the flu first. No one thought to question it much because we all had to get the vax at the hospital.

We legislate health all the time, how is vaccination any different?

Jac3510 wrote:Hmm. I was out of work for an entire week. Doc said it was pneumonia--chest x-rays and such--but that has to come from something. I wonder if I didn't have the flu first. No one thought to question it much because we all had to get the vax at the hospital.

How dare you make an unfounded assumption that you may have had the flu. You cannot get the flu if you had the flu vaccine. Otherwise, what's the point of the vaccine?

Jac,

You really need to learn how to just drink the Kool-Aid.

The only time I got really sick from the flu is when I took a flu vaccine !
Never took one again, never had the flu since then.

PaulSacramento wrote:The only time I got really sick from the flu is when I took a flu vaccine !
Never took one again, never had the flu since then.

That cannot be Paul. How many times do I have to tell you, "YOU CANNOT GET THE FLU FROM THE FLU VACCINE!!!!"


Apparently, you need to just learn to drink the Kool-Aid too.