Evidence for God from Science

You Christians are going to lose this chess game...again!

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:You Christians are going to lose this chess game...again!

FL

Confucius say, "me no rike praying chess with afiest. Me no rikie feces."

Lost in Space !

EssentialSacrifice wrote:Lost in Space !

FL's quote:

Debating with an atheist is like playing chess with a monkey. No matter how good you are, the monkey will knock over all the pieces, defecate on the board and claim victory.

RickD wrote:

EssentialSacrifice wrote:Lost in Space !

FL's quote:

Debating with an atheist is like playing chess with a monkey. No matter how good you are, the monkey will knock over all the pieces, defecate on the board and claim victory.

That's not really fair. They normally ignore many of your pieces are still standing while defecating.

Ignorance is not just what you don't know. It's also what you won't know.

ignorance is not just what you don't know. It's also what you won't know

Mirror Mirror on the wall ...



It's good you're back Q22, these guys really can help with your questions, but don't take to well to the face palm. Did you have an opportunity to read the Paine link ?

EssentialSacrifice - yes, I read the first link you posted, though not the second. Not sure what in particular you thought might be compelling from a Christian apologetics website about Paine. I wasn't exactly shocked they didn't embrace Paine's ideas.

My question is - did you read the Paine essay I originally posted? I'd love to be more condemning of you if you did not (and I doubt you did), but I was the same way when I was a Christian. The last thing I would have done is wasted time reading something written by someone who was 'lost'. If anything, I'd go to an apologist book or website and find what sounds like a good refutation of the argument. The problem with Christian apologetics - or rather the brilliance of Christian apologetics - is that they GIVE you the opposing viewpoint on a silver platter before tearing it down. But, they're not really ever giving you an accurate portrayal. It's skewed. Pick up The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and read it - don't read a book by an apologist telling you what Dawkins thinks. Pick up Letter to a Christian Nation, or God is Not Great and see what these guys have to say. Someone a few years back asked me to read Tim Keller's Reason for God. I read it, as I'm open to any and all viewpoints (I frequently go to sleep listening to podcasts of sermons). Well written book, but his portrayal of the atheist viewpoint was way off. If as a Christian you want to know the other side of the argument - and let's be honest - most don't - then you have to break the umbilical cord between you and the apologist.

Questioner,

FYI, there's no such thing as "when I was a Christian". Either you trusted Christ for salvation, and you're still a Christian. Or you never were a Christian.

Yeah, yeah...No True Scotsman...I get it. Let me say it again. I'll put it below as maybe it'll be more clear.

I
Don't
Care
If
You
Think
I
Was
Ever
A
True
Believer

Much like I don't care if you ever thought you were Superman when you were a kid.

questioner22 wrote:Yeah, yeah...No True Scotsman...I get it. Let me say it again. I'll put it below as maybe it'll be more clear.

I
Don't
Care
If
You
Think
I
Was
Ever
A
True
Believer

Much like I don't care if you ever thought you were Superman when you were a kid.

Did I say that I didn't think you were ever/are a believer? I just told you that you cannot be an ex-believer. If you trusted Christ for salvation(I have no idea if you ever have) then you ARE a believer. If you have ever trusted Christ for salvation, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit. You are guaranteed eternal life.

I'd love to be more condemning of you if you did not (and I doubt you did)

I didn't post any of the links, i think it was B.W., but found them illuminating in regards to Paine's real time situation and personal critiques from others who knew him...

Anyway, condemn away young man, i read the first 12 or so paragraphs... I'm sorry, but I am, apparently, one of those bullet proof Christians. It doesn't matter what they say or why, I know and have experienced my God in heart and will never give Him away. I'm sorry you have, but there is Hope and Mercy available and will be for you and all until the end.

You look for experience that denies, I look for experience that enriches. We're on two very different paths. You won't care for this, but i hope for your return.

Quick reply button works correctly.
It is recommended when writing a longer post, to save it from time to time via Ctrl-C. If post gets lost, start new one and press Ctrl-V.

(Maybe the new phpbb 3.1 that I plan to move to will handle this)

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

Anyway, condemn away young man, i read the first 12 or so paragraphs... I'm sorry, but I am, apparently, one of those bullet proof Christians. It doesn't matter what they say or why, I know and have experienced my God in heart and will never give Him away. I'm sorry you have, but there is Hope and Mercy available and will be for you and all until the end.

You look for experience that denies, I look for experience that enriches. We're on two very different paths. You won't care for this, but i hope for your return.

EssentialSacrifice - I fear when you say that you're a 'bullet proof Christian', you say it with a certain measure of pride. I hope to never be so dogmatic as to know I cannot possibly be wrong about something - anything. Socrates (heretic!) said something along the lines that true knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing. I've long thought that with age, and wisdom, comes a weakening of dogma. Issues that when you're young seem SO black and white, become far less so as we get older IF we're open to the idea that we could be wrong. Understand that when you say "I know and have experienced God in my heart" that the Mormon, the Muslim, the Jehovah's Witness....all can say the same thing. I doubt you think they're all right, and yet if there's just one God, how is he sending such mixed messages. (Note: default answer is 'Satan')

I would never agree that I look for experience that denies - what I would say, and have said since the beginning of this journey, is that I pursue truth. It's of the utmost importance to me. If I'm wrong about anything at all, I want to know it. And when I find I'm wrong about something, I celebrate the fact that I just shed some untruth.

Questioner,

Are you going to get back on topic and address the question I asked you?

I explained that I believe Isaiah 1:4 is about Jesus. I wouldn't say it's solely related to his incarnation, If that's what you're getting at. Is someone promoting Isaiah 1:4 as something that you believe is wrong? If that's the case, post a link to it, and we can look at it.
As far as finding something that could make me think the bible is wrong, I've always been open to that possibility. I just haven't found anything that has made me think that yet. I'm always open to testing scripture, to see if it's reliable. I have no problem putting scripture up to scrutiny.
Do you have a specific issue in scripture that you want to discuss?