Evidence for God from Science

ES: pe4
Ken: Bf2
ES: Qg6
Ken: Ff4

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:ES: pe4
Ken: Bf2
ES: Qg6
Ken: Ff4

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:ES: pe4
Ken: Bf2
ES: Qg6
Ken: Ff4

FL

???

K

ken wrote:
No, this is you taking a small fraction of what I said out of context; trying to make it seem as if I said something I did not.

Look ken, you say I've put words in your mouth and I've done nothing more than listen to you. ...

ken wrote:
According to the Bible, how many times did the God of the Old Testament physically prove his existence to mankind? Did they mock him when Elijah had the confrontation with the Prophets of Baal and God sent a fire from heaven to consume the sacrifice and all the water that was poured on top of it? Did they mock when the 3 hebrew boys were put in the furnace and were unharmed? Did they mock when Daniel was put in the lions den and was unharmed? If they were not mocked then, why would you assume such a display would result in mockery today

If your smart enough, well rounded enough with your bible references as you show here... then surely you must realize when you say this...

I will bet if he came off the cross at that time and showed everyone he was not a fraud, that would have converted more, and accomplished more, than he ever did by just hanging there allowing his executioners perceive him as a criminal.

This is exactly what the people who surrounded Christ at the crucifixion stated..in mockery and derision... "you are a fraud if you cannot come down from the cross" By mimicing their words you take credit for their meaning just as they did... except ken you have the value of hindsight that they did not... you know the whole story, what happened after the crucifixion... and still agree with their mockery... I don't think they would have had they known of the ressurection that was to take place, and following results of it...
This doesn't even begin to address/rationalize the "I bet part" that's you deciding if He were to come off the cross at that point he would have been more effective... more effective than dying, going to the dead, raising himself in three days, by His own power ? John 10:18. This ken, is the very heart of the Chistian faith, and you mock it...

We're done here, I'm done here, no more inane chess match ... you cannot be reasoned with and will not be respectful. You're on a Christian site of people who do believe this "Jesus thing" to be true and even if you cannot agree you should at the very least be more respectful of others' faith.

perhaps FL is right about you .. too bad...

perplexedsoul wrote:Everyone use the word 'dimension', They play with that word. What exactly meant by dimension ?? And where is the resurrected jesus christ ?? Why he is not coming to the world and proove that he exist. Why he is not coming infront of a video camera and let himself recorded ???

I dont normally think much of posting links to youtube, but this does a good quick job of boggling the mind, thinking about dimensions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4Gotl9vRGs

EssentialSacrifice wrote: This is exactly what the people who surrounded Christ at the crucifixion stated..in mockery and derision... "you are a fraud if you cannot come down from the cross" By mimicing their words you take credit for their meaning just as they did...

So let me see if I can get this method to your madness; When I said:
If he came down and proved to everyone he was not a fraud, more would have converted.....

To you that statement is the same as calling Jesus a fraud; is that correct? Suppose I worded it differently and instead said;

If he came down and proved to everyone he was the son of God, more would have converted....
Would you be claiming I am a Christian? Would you consider those wordings as equal to me claiming I believe Jesus is God's son?

Ken

So let me see if I can get this method to your madness;

There is none ken... all the madness is on you ... you can say it your way a thousand different ways...

I will bet if he came off the cross at that time and showed everyone he was not a fraud, that would have converted more, and accomplished more, than he ever did by just hanging there allowing his executioners perceive him as a criminal.
If he came down and proved to everyone he was not a fraud, more would have converted.....
If he came down and proved to everyone he was the son of God, more would have converted....

they're all wrong... and I couldn't have laid it out any more clearly...

I gave you this ...

Luke 16:30–31
30 “But he said, ‘No, afather Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’
31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’

I gave you this...

John 10:18
18 “No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father

I gave you this...

more effective than dying, going to the dead, raising himself in three days, by His own power ?

Jesus suffered death, He died and was buried, He descended to the dead, He rose again three days later...from the dead.

For the last time, this is why He is God. This is why He didn't climb down from the cross, this is why your "I'm smarter than God bet is sheer mockery"
and if you're not getting it now....

get this

ob·tuse
əbˈt(y)o͞os,äbˈt(y)o͞os/Submit
adjective
1.annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

So let me see if I can get this method to your madness;

There is none ken... all the madness is on you ... you can say it your way a thousand different ways...

I will bet if he came off the cross at that time and showed everyone he was not a fraud, that would have converted more, and accomplished more, than he ever did by just hanging there allowing his executioners perceive him as a criminal.
If he came down and proved to everyone he was not a fraud, more would have converted.....
If he came down and proved to everyone he was the son of God, more would have converted....

they're all wrong... and I couldn't have laid it out any more clearly...

I gave you this ...

Luke 16:30–31
30 “But he said, ‘No, afather Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’
31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’

I gave you this...

John 10:18
18 “No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father

I gave you this...

more effective than dying, going to the dead, raising himself in three days, by His own power ?

Jesus suffered death, He died and was buried, He descended to the dead, He rose again three days later...from the dead.

For the last time, this is why He is God. This is why He didn't climb down from the cross, this is why your "I'm smarter than God bet is sheer mockery"
and if you're not getting it now....

get this

ob·tuse
əbˈt(y)o͞os,äbˈt(y)o͞os/Submit
adjective
1.annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.

So in other words, you refuse to answer the one question I asked you, and instead answer a bunch of questions nobody asked. Nuff said.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

1over137 wrote: I also have questions:
Why people did not believe Jesus when he came and performed miracles?

How do you know Jesus preformed miracles? The only thing you know about Jesus is what other people said he did; how do you know they were telling the truth? You take it on faith that what those who wrote the bible said of him was the truth

1over137 wrote:Why they beated him and mocked him?
How many times should Jesus come to the world and be mocked?

According to the Bible, how many times did the God of the Old Testament physically prove his existence to mankind? Did they mock him when Elijah had the confrontation with the Prophets of Baal and God sent a fire from heaven to consume the sacrifice and all the water that was poured on top of it? Did they mock when the 3 hebrew boys were put in the furnace and were unharmed? Did they mock when Daniel was put in the lions den and was unharmed? If they were not mocked then, why would you assume such a display would result in mockery today?

1over137 wrote:Infront of a video camera? Like David Copperfield? Who would believe Him?

Everybody!

Ken

I know more about Jesus than "the only thing you know about Jesus is what other people said he did". And yes, I have faith that what people said in the Bible was true. God is great enough to keep his word unpolluted. Thankfully, we have some historical evidences about Jesus too.

Why I assume mockery: look at the New Testament how they behaved towards Jesus.
If he came down to earth again not as a strong, powerful God but as a humble sheep, how people would behave towards him? But yes, we were talking about Jesus doing miracles as well. Notice in the NT where and when Jesus was performing miracles. In front of humble people or in front of prideful ones?

Everybody!

Ken

You have for sure expressed lot of faith here.

Kenny wrote:

EssentialSacrifice wrote: This is exactly what the people who surrounded Christ at the crucifixion stated..in mockery and derision... "you are a fraud if you cannot come down from the cross" By mimicing their words you take credit for their meaning just as they did...

So let me see if I can get this method to your madness; When I said:
If he came down and proved to everyone he was not a fraud, more would have converted.....

To you that statement is the same as calling Jesus a fraud; is that correct? Suppose I worded it differently and instead said;

If he came down and proved to everyone he was the son of God, more would have converted....
Would you be claiming I am a Christian? Would you consider those wordings as equal to me claiming I believe Jesus is God's son?

Ken

By saying that if He came down from the cross and proved to everyone He was not a fraud, more would have converted it implies you think He was a fraud.

Why do you think more people would have been converted if the resurrection didn`t manage that?

I just think it says a lot that Kenny thinks Christ's calling was to "convert" people.

1Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

RickD wrote:I just think it says a lot that Kenny thinks Christ's calling was to "convert" people.

RickD wrote:1Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Kenny wrote:

EssentialSacrifice wrote: This is exactly what the people who surrounded Christ at the crucifixion stated..in mockery and derision... "you are a fraud if you cannot come down from the cross" By mimicing their words you take credit for their meaning just as they did...

So let me see if I can get this method to your madness; When I said:
If he came down and proved to everyone he was not a fraud, more would have converted.....

To you that statement is the same as calling Jesus a fraud; is that correct? Suppose I worded it differently and instead said;

If he came down and proved to everyone he was the son of God, more would have converted....
Would you be claiming I am a Christian? Would you consider those wordings as equal to me claiming I believe Jesus is God's son?

Ken

Storyteller wrote: By saying that if He came down from the cross and proved to everyone He was not a fraud, more would have converted it implies you think He was a fraud.

No it implies those who were there thought he was a fraud. As I've said before, my personal opinion is that because Jesus never wrote anything down, nobody really knows what he said or did; the only thing people know is what those who wrote about him claimed he said or did. I would even consider the possibility of Jesus rolling over in his grave if he knew what the Christians were actually saying about him. Of course this goes against Christian belief, IMO IF there were fraud, it would be those who claimed Jesus said this or claimed he did that. To call Jesus a fraud based upon what someone else said of him is foolish IMO

Storyteller wrote: Why do you think more people would have been converted if the resurrection didn`t manage that?

[/quote]

The Crucifixion was a public display in front of a large audience of unbelievers; the resurrection was not

K

RickD wrote:I just think it says a lot that Kenny thinks Christ's calling was to "convert" people.

1Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

If the "plan of salvation" included events that resulted in the conversion of countless more, don't cha think that would be a good thing?

K

Kenny wrote:

RickD wrote:I just think it says a lot that Kenny thinks Christ's calling was to "convert" people.

1Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

If the "plan of salvation" included events that resulted in the conversion of countless more, don't cha think that would be a good thing?

K

Kenny,

The "plan of salvation" has nothing to do with "converting" people. That's a common misconception about Christianity. But usually the misconception happens when non believers think it's a believer's duty to "convert" them. I've never heard anyone say that Jesus was supposed to "convert" people.