Evidence for God from Science

@Jac, to clarify I believe all analogies I believe break down at some point.
That's not that we can't understand God or the Trinity to various degrees.

I do find the more accurate and helpful analogies those highlight God's relations (e.g., Trinity Love analogy).
-- but what you've presented is more theological reasoning which can define logical boundaries and make rational sense of God in non-contradictory terms.

I think it is important to understand that there are three ways through which we try to understand the Trinity (maybe more, but I readily identify only three).

Firstly there is (1) logically, which is attempts to understand the Trinity in non-contradictory terms (e.g., we don't have 3 Gods in 1 God as Muslims and Jehovah Witnesses accuse which is logically unsound)

Secondly, there is (2) understanding God conceptually in our minds. You know, when we talk of colours, we can see in our minds the impression of colours. When we talk of God, what do we conceive? How can we conceive of such infiniteness, and who by definition is never conceived but eternal, possessing aseity. Here we can only look to analogies to help with a conceptual understanding of God in our minds. And we'll likely always come unstuck at some point and confused by such, namely because we are attempting to conceive of the Supreme Being who is by definition not conceived and inconceivable.

Thirdly, there is (3) understanding God revealed by Christ and in Scripture. I find this the most beneficial for understanding God.

With our logical (theological) understandings, we are trying to explain what we find revealed in Scripture so that we can verify there is no contradiction within the revealed truths of God that Scripture provides.
I think theologians have been quite successful here -- whether or not one particular logical explanation is more correct -- it certainly seems that the picture of God presented in Scripture can be made coherent.
At best Trinitarian thought is logically coherent (as many philosophers and theologians have accepted) and at worst it is very hard to pin down where exactly Trinitarian logic is invalid.

And then conceptually, there are some great analogies. None perfect, they can never be. But, they can try and help.
One analogy may helps one person, but may utterly confuse another. Analogies should be considered very much anecdotal.

Best is what Scripture reveals -- since that is what we as Christians are trying to explain and account for.
Looking to Scripture is like going to the horses mouth. And it's what I use when talking with my kids about such matters.

Continuing from my last post with (3) understanding God as revealed by Christ and in Scripture.

If anyone is confused about the Trinity,
then they should simplify matters by just reflecting upon what Scripture says.

For my daughter, she asked how the Father and Jesus can both be God.
I brought her question back to what Scripture reveals.

Scripture says Jesus being in the very nature God, chose to come and visit us on Earth in human bodily form. (Philippians 2:5-7)
So I asked her back, couldn't God come and visit us in the form of a man if He desired? "Yes," was her response.
I agree with her. Those who argue it is silly or impossible for God to enter into our world in human form, I think they would have a hard time arguing why.

I then asked some harder followup questions like,
if God is here as Jesus, then who is keeping the universe running? "Jesus," was her response.
How is Jesus running it? "Because He's God." If Jesus was crucified and died, then who resurrected Christ? "God did."

Her responses I think are largely correct and while one might want to try and figure matters out further, there is nothing explicitly contradictory.
The implication is that while Jesus is God and did visit us, then God is also not restricted to Jesus' human form.
There seems to be something more to God and Jesus than taking on human form.

I didn't go much further with her, but some extended reflections...

This something more is what allows Jesus to pray to "His Father" to take His cup from in the Garden of Gethsemane.
God from which Christ the man was begotten, is also revealed as an eternal person always existing as God.
John 1 reveals this to us in assigning all of creation as being the work of Jesus -- nothing has existence that was created except through Jesus.
Therefore, Jesus may be begotten of God but is nonetheless uncreated.

What of the Holy Spirit Mel?
Read John 14:16 to the end of chapter. Then read Paul's related words in 1 Cor 2:10-13.
Jesus talks of sending another who will help his disciples in life. And Paul talks of the Holy Spirit being central to God.
To teach and correct, indeed know the very "mind" of God, the Holy Spirit seems to very heart of God (just as I'd argue Jesus and the Father).
To para-phrase Jesus, "Who is holy but God? Only God is holy." Why should we also be baptised in the name of the Spirit? (Matt 28:19)
Then add in Romans 8:27, Hebrews 9:14 and a great deal many other passages in Scripture that mention the Spirit.

What we are left with is some logic akin to the Trinity, however we try to work it out and logically explain.

Look at me, always killing discussions.

That, or me abandoning them . . .

Actually, FYI, I'm goinng to be off the boards until June 8. I am finishing up writing ordination materials and I'm coming up on a hard deadline, and then I'll be in Louisville, KY for an annual conference I have to attend. And all of this while we are closing on our first house! I'll say more here and in your simplicity thread then.

There is more than one way for us to grasp the Trinity because it is the Holy Spirit who teaches us how to grasp the nature of the Godhead or HaElohim. One may may use reason and logic or use the scripture or by the original languages used in the bible. The co-eternal, co-equalness of HaElohim truly make what God says about himself true: There is NONE like him.

Another analogy that the Holy Spirit uses to teach a person on this subject is the Unity of Love within God as mentioned prior.

Another is the gender of the original language grammar. God is Spirit. Though you cannot say God is either male of female as we think of gender, God uses the 'HE' to describe himself. The grammar cases masculine/Feminine/neuter) does not indicate gender when referring to God but they help explain each Divine Person of HaElohim's ONE essence. Jac touched on this a page back on the person-hood-ness of God.

For example, in Proverbs 8 wisdom is referred to in feminine grammar case and in Proverbs 3:13-20, Proverbs 9:10,11 more is revealed. In the New Testament Jesus is mentioned as wisdom and so is the Holy Spirit. The early Church Fathers mentions these things about wisdom as well too. Yet Jesus appeared as Son of Man in true human gender form. So the grammar structure used to describe God actually helps define 'Person' of the Godhead and not biological gender. In other words, there is a distinction mentioned in the original languages between Father, Son, Holy Spirit, yet a co-equality too as well as one Echaud - or oneness of essence.

It is our human minds and interpretations of oneness that gets in the way. We are more linear in thought so that the Plurality of God's true Majestic form is lost to our conceptualization of God's true essence of being or simple being. In order for God to say - there is none like him - it means just that - there is None Like Him in the most absolute sense. That is something we can understand.

In fact Isa 11:2 mentions the Seven Spirits of God ,even the Jewish scholars understood that this did not mean there are 7 gods but rather One God who expresses these traits. But in the context of Isa 11 for Christians this reveals Jesus as having these traits of Person that make him complete so Jesus could do his task on the cross and Resurrection - see http://www.gotquestions.org/seven-spirits-God.html

Now you all are probably more confused... I used this to illustrate that it is best to keep it simple. Let the Holy Spirit Himself teach you from the bible - the Nature of God.
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Kurieuo wrote:Look at me, always killing discussions.

What of the Holy Spirit K
I have been really busy, I will respond soooon

Melanie,

Please note John John 14:26 and John 16:13,14 and note the pronoun He is used.

What do these verses say to you?

Blessings!
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Finally getting back to this!

Greek assigns a specific gender for every noun. Every object, animate or inanimate is either masculine, feminine or neuter. We don't do that in the English language we assign nouns in a neuter context, with the pronoun 'it'.
In Greek both masculine and neuter words are used when referring to the HS. The Greek word Parakletos, translated as counsellor, helper, comforter and advocate in scripture is a masculine word in Greek, so masculine pronouns are used 'he and him'. It is correct in Greek for Parakletos to be used with masculine pronouns but not in English. We see this with many languages, in French the word book, livre, is of a masculine gender and they use in their language masculine pronouns, but we don't when we translate it into English, we don't say 'where is my book so I can read him'.
But the Greek word Pneuma meaning spirit but also translated in scripture as wind and breath is a grammatically neuter word. So in Greek neuter pronouns are used like it, itself ect.
When the King James was produced the trinity doctrine had been around for more than 1000 years, so the translators probably influenced by this chose to use personal, masculine pronouns when translating spirit even though it is not grammatically correct, but they didn't every time, sometimes they did assign proper neuter pronouns.
Romans 8:16 'the spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit' (not himself)
Romans 8:26 'the spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered' (not himself).
Matthew 10:20 'for it is not Ye that speak, but the spirit of your Father which was in them'
And
1Peter 1:11 'the spirit of Christ which was in them' ( both using which not who).

So masculine pronouns are not proof as far as I see it, that the HS is a distinct and separate person.

When I say that the HS is God I mean that it is His will, His power, His mind, it is the means by which His omnipresence can be everywhere at once. In the hearts and spirits of believers everywhere. We can be christians and have the HS, meet with fellow christians and ask for God to send His HS on the gathering, the HS both living inside us and being called to us. The presence of God. Both God the Father and the Son. Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Ephesians 4:4 says that there is one body and one spirit. God the Father and God the son, two distinct people sharing one essence, one 'spirit' that manifests itself when we come to Christ.
When we come to Christ we do so by the power of the Father and the sacrifice of His Son, we enter into a relationship, we become children of God, and we are lol blessed by having the HS living within us. We are called to become Christlike to follow the will of the Father, God makes this possible by guiding us, helping us, by His spirit, by anointing us with His Holy Spirit.
The only passage in scripture that I think may point to personhood of the HS, is Matthew 28:19 'Therefore to and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of The Father, The Son and Holy Spirit'. But for reasons that I will go into, in light of the rest of scripture I just don't think I can honestly rest the trinity doctrine on this one verse. We need these three to become a believer. Firstly we need both The Father and Son to reconcile us to God, but we also need the power of Gods spirit in our lives to rectify and sanctify us. When we believe, God lives in us. That is what I think this verse is meaning. We need the Father, Son and Spirit.

There are two main reasons I do not view the HS as a distinct, separate person firstly it is because the HS and the spirit of God are used interchangeably in scripture. Showing them to be one and the same. The trinity doctrine says the the father is not the son, correct, and the son is not the Father but it also says the son and father are not the spirit. But scripture says the Father and Son are the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 'Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Luke 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
We are told that the HS and the Father are two distinct people. Who was Jesus' Father? Scripture clearly states that the HS came upon Mary. So if we believe the trinity then the HS, the distinct third person is the spiritual Father of Jesus but we know that God the Father is, this verse doesn't mean the HS the third person, it means by the power and will of the Father. We know God is Holy and is spirit. He is Holy Spirit. It was the Fathers Spirit but scripture uses HS to represent God's manifesting will, mind and power.
Mathew, Mark, Luke and John are retelling the same events but by their individual expression.
Look at Luke 12:11-12 'When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Now Matthew 10:17-20 'But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you'.

They are both recounting Jesus words, speaking of the very same event. They use HS and the Spirit of your Father interchangeably to mean the very same thing. They did not distinguish between the first and third person of the trinity, to them they were one and the same. The disciples throughout scripture never teach, nor did Jesus ever teach that the HS was a distinct separate person. It is us that has injected our interpretation into scripture to come up with this. The bible clearly speaks about Jesus and the Father, there is no ambiguity there, clear as anything. Which brings me to my second reason, why is the HS not spoken of in light of being this third person, there must be more in scripture to prove this personhood, it's just not there.
John 10:30 'I and the Father are one'
1 Corinthians 8:6 'yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
John 14:6 'Jesus said to him 'I am the way, and the truth and the life, no one comes to The Father except through me'
Hebrews 1:2-3 But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high'.

I am going to stop there but there are so many versus that clearly and distinctly show the relationship and personhood of the Father and Son. Where is the HS in regards to this personal relationship Scripture so beautifully displays.

Paul's letters to the churches and Peters epistles all consistently mention 'God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ' not once is the HS included, not in Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus, Philemon,. What an unbelievable and major oversight if the HS were indeed a separate person but coequal not so though if the HS is God The Father and Son.

Acts and revelations speak of Gods throne with Jesus being on the right side but no mention of the HS. Daniel speaks of God the Father and the pre existent Jesus in his vision but again no mention of the HS. Why is 'He' not present, not represented?

It is also interesting to note that in the NDE cases many have spoken of seeing God the Father as emanating light and love and many more have spoken of seeing Jesus but the HS is absent in these accounts.

I just do not think that the Trinity doctrine is biblically sound. I do see how some versus have been misinterpreted to see as such, but in light of all scripture I do not think that it holds. I have no prejudices to see it this way, I don't follow a particular church, or have pre existing ideas. I love God dearly and would never want to misrepresent Him, this is serious to me and not ideas I am just throwing out there, I have reflected on this intently and I am very secure in my thoughts, in saying that I always welcome others opinion.

Hi Mel,

So do you see God as a Binity i.e., two in one - Christ and the Father?

There was a time when I questioned the Trinity and examined it closely.
JWs were the ones who questioned it, and that lead me to my own personal investigation.
Scripture was quite clear and unavoidable, it really needed to be twisted to just support the Holy Spirit as some "force".

So I think it is wrong, and clearly so, to disregard the Holy Spirit as not being a person who is God (like Christ and the Father).

Also, I think it would be good to read the sources that you compiled your posts from.
If you wouldn't mind sharing links to the sources that you drew from?

melanie wrote: When I say that the HS is God I mean that it is His will, His power, His mind, it is the means by which His omnipresence can be everywhere at once. In the hearts and spirits of believers everywhere. We can be christians and have the HS, meet with fellow christians and ask for God to send His HS on the gathering, the HS both living inside us and being called to us. The presence of God. Both God the Father and the Son. Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Ephesians 4:4 says that there is one body and one spirit. God the Father and God the son, two distinct people sharing one essence, one 'spirit' that manifests itself when we come to Christ.
When we come to Christ we do so by the power of the Father and the sacrifice of His Son, we enter into a relationship, we become children of God, and we are lol blessed by having the HS living within us. We are called to become Christlike to follow the will of the Father, God makes this possible by guiding us, helping us, by His spirit, by anointing us with His Holy Spirit.

The only passage in scripture that I think may point to personhood of the HS, is Matthew 28:19 'Therefore to and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of The Father, The Son and Holy Spirit'. But for reasons that I will go into, in light of the rest of scripture I just don't think I can honestly rest the trinity doctrine on this one verse. We need these three to become a believer. Firstly we need both The Father and Son to reconcile us to God, but we also need the power of Gods spirit in our lives to rectify and sanctify us. When we believe, God lives in us. That is what I think this verse is meaning. We need the Father, Son and Spirit.

There are two main reasons I do not view the HS as a distinct, separate person firstly it is because the HS and the spirit of God are used interchangeably in scripture. Showing them to be one and the same. The trinity doctrine says the the father is not the son, correct, and the son is not the Father but it also says the son and father are not the spirit. But scripture says the Father and Son are the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 'Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Luke 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

We are told that the HS and the Father are two distinct people. Who was Jesus' Father? Scripture clearly states that the HS came upon Mary. So if we believe the trinity then the HS, the distinct third person is the spiritual Father of Jesus but we know that God the Father is, this verse doesn't mean the HS the third person, it means by the power and will of the Father. We know God is Holy and is spirit. He is Holy Spirit. It was the Fathers Spirit but scripture uses HS to represent God's manifesting will, mind and power.

Mathew, Mark, Luke and John are retelling the same events but by their individual expression.
Look at Luke 12:11-12 'When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Now Matthew 10:17-20 'But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you'.

They are both recounting Jesus words, speaking of the very same event. They use HS and the Spirit of your Father interchangeably to mean the very same thing. They did not distinguish between the first and third person of the trinity, to them they were one and the same. The disciples throughout scripture never teach, nor did Jesus ever teach that the HS was a distinct separate person. It is us that has injected our interpretation into scripture to come up with this. The bible clearly speaks about Jesus and the Father, there is no ambiguity there, clear as anything. Which brings me to my second reason, why is the HS not spoken of in light of being this third person, there must be more in scripture to prove this personhood, it's just not there.

John 10:30 'I and the Father are one'
1 Corinthians 8:6 'yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
John 14:6 'Jesus said to him 'I am the way, and the truth and the life, no one comes to The Father except through me'
Hebrews 1:2-3 But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high'.

I am going to stop there but there are so many versus that clearly and distinctly show the relationship and personhood of the Father and Son. Where is the HS in regards to this personal relationship Scripture so beautifully displays.

Paul's letters to the churches and Peters epistles all consistently mention 'God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ' not once is the HS included, not in Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus, Philemon,. What an unbelievable and major oversight if the HS were indeed a separate person but coequal not so though if the HS is God The Father and Son.

Acts and revelations speak of Gods throne with Jesus being on the right side but no mention of the HS. Daniel speaks of God the Father and the pre existent Jesus in his vision but again no mention of the HS. Why is 'He' not present, not represented?

It is also interesting to note that in the NDE cases many have spoken of seeing God the Father as emanating light and love and many more have spoken of seeing Jesus but the HS is absent in these accounts.

I just do not think that the Trinity doctrine is biblically sound. I do see how some versus have been misinterpreted to see as such, but in light of all scripture I do not think that it holds. I have no prejudices to see it this way, I don't follow a particular church, or have pre existing ideas. I love God dearly and would never want to misrepresent Him, this is serious to me and not ideas I am just throwing out there, I have reflected on this intently and I am very secure in my thoughts, in saying that I always welcome others opinion.

Let's see you stated that the Holy Spirit is God's presence. So this begs the question - if the Holy Spirit is the presence of God then the Holy Spirit is a person called God.

In fact, you are not far off track. The ancient Hebrew missed this as well too. They recognized the presence of God as 'Paniym' but failed to see the persons of the entire paniym of God even though that is how he revealed himself to people in the OT.

Numbers 6:24-27 NKJV, "The LORD bless you and keep you;
25 The LORD make His face (Paniym) shine upon you, And be gracious to you;
26 The LORD lift up His countenance (Paniym) upon you, And give you peace (wholeness/soundness)." '
27 "So they shall put My name on the children of Israel, and I will bless them."

In the Numbers 6 quote, you have Jesus the son - who is full of grace mentioned and the Holy Spirit who establishes wholeness /soundness / peace mentioned as well.

Again, the Holy Spirit is actually teaching you who the Godhead is. You are close...

In the OT you have God very often using third person speech about himself... such as in..

Isa 48:16,17 NKJV, "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord (adoni) GOD (YHWH) and His Spirit Have sent Me." 17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go."

Now back to this...

B. W. wrote:Melanie,

Please note John John 14:26 and John 16:13,14 and note the pronoun He is used.

What do these verses say to you?

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If the HS is not a person but simply God's will or an impersonal force, then Jesus means what when He says He will send a "helper" , an "advocate" to guide and teach those who believe in Him?
Does He mean He will send God's spirit? God's "force" ?
If He sends God's spirit does that mean God no longer has a spirit ?

Mel,

As I can see it you agree with this:

1) The Father is God

2) The Son is God

3) The Holy Spirit is God


But your disagreement seems to lie in the personhood of the HS.

Maybe Someone could expound on exactly what "person" means in regards to the Trinity.

Mel,
I don't see you're that far off from a trinitarian view.

RickD wrote:Mel,

As I can see it you agree with this:

1) The Father is God

2) The Son is God

3) The Holy Spirit is God


But your disagreement seems to lie in the personhood of the HS.

Maybe Someone could expound on exactly what "person" means in regards to the Trinity.

Mel,
I don't see you're that far off from a trinitarian view.

Most bitarians ( Christians that believe Jesus to Be God like The Father but a different person) simply do not feel there is any doctrinal evidence to establish the HS as being an individual.

God reveals his nature of being, the Trinity, in the bible. From there, he teaches each of us in various ways that reveals himself as he is. Some folks are more able to understand philosophically, others, visually, others through use of language, others through logic, and so it goes.

From Romans chapter one, those that are visual see the triune nature of God in the makeup of living creation. For example, the three sections that make one Orange an Orange is seen and understood. Another person who understands philosophy and logic would scoff at such an example and reason against it due to a philosophic-logic-centric world view.

The point I am trying to make is to simply understand that people do not think in the same terms and ways. Some are more visual, others more language oriented, still others more scientific, other logical and philosophical and too each God reveals himself in ways individuals can grasp his nature of being. Our mistake, is to say there is only one way to understand that trumps all others and be chest thumping proud about it.

As a friend of mine coined the phrase: God is Omni-personal, I use it here as well too. God reveals himself, in due time, revealing and teaching to each believer about himself in an Omni-personal manner that helps each individual uncover the truth about God’s nature in a manner she or he grasps best. This is but one example of God being a living God, being alive and well to his own people. The Holy Spirit teaches us, even when a believer in Jesus does not understand the Holy Spirit. A force or power cannot instruct only compel. Jesus did say, the Holy Spirit will instruct, teach, lead, and guide. A compulsionary force cannot do these things as there is a difference between being pushed along, and being freely instructed/reasoned with.

For me, I came to grasp God’s nature through the bible in a more visual and study of the original language sorts of ways. I understand the philosophic and logic ways now too and discover there is no competition between the two methods, nor is one way better than the other as God reveals his triune nature of being to each in a manner she or he can grasp best.

There is a common denominator though and that God reveals through truth and His word he left to us. The fact in both Old and New Testaments God reveals the Holy Spirit as ‘person’ and not as ‘force’ is compelling for both visually and logically inclined minded believers. So with this, Melanie, you are not far from grasping the truth as the Lord is instructing you and who is instructing is not a force.

Blessings
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Jac3510 wrote:That, or me abandoning them . . .

Actually, FYI, I'm goinng to be off the boards until June 8. I am finishing up writing ordination materials and I'm coming up on a hard deadline, and then I'll be in Louisville, KY for an annual conference I have to attend. And all of this while we are closing on our first house! I'll say more here and in your simplicity thread then.

Congrats on the house closing Jac!

And be sure to keep us posted as to when the first "house warming" party will be!

I've always wanted to take a road trip to Mississippi, Alabama, or wherever you live.

I'll bring the *!




*FL will be riding with me.