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Re: Batting for the other team
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:01 am
by Jac3510
neo-x wrote:I think gay people should be allowed to marry, why not. But that is just me, its against my faith, but then not everyone lives under or according to my faith.
If that were the argument against gay marriage, I would completely agree with you. And it is, in fact, the argument many, if not most, Christians use.
It is, however, the wrong argument. It is not the argument that has historically been used. The simple fact is that the definition of marriage is not a matter of faith. It is a matter of reason. And society has a vested interest in defining it a particular way. You you define it incorrectly, there are social consequences that seriously detract from the common good, and to steal and reverse a metaphor commonly used to describe economics, when the tide falls,
all the ships fall with it.
Re: Batting for the other team
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:04 am
by EssentialSacrifice
It comes down to how strict we are with the definition of sin, is it just the ACT or is it the DESIRE to commit the act?
Matthew 5:28 pretty much sums it up ...
Re: Batting for the other team
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:09 am
by RickD
EssentialSacrifice wrote:It comes down to how strict we are with the definition of sin, is it just the ACT or is it the DESIRE to commit the act?
Matthew 5:28 pretty much sums it up ...
Sure. But is same sex
attraction necessarily the same as lust?
Re: Batting for the other team
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:19 am
by EssentialSacrifice
Sure. But is same sex attraction necessarily the same as lust?
I must assume, as i have no experience with attraction to the same sex, that attraction is attraction and lust is still lust. You can be attracted without being lustful but certainly much harder to be lustful and not initially attracted. They may not be mutually exclusive but defined as they are, IMO the two can be compatible without being sinful, whether heterosexual or homosexual.
Re: Batting for the other team
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:24 am
by Storyteller
I have absolutely no problem with homosexuality between two consenting adults and I see no reason why there cannot be a commited relationship involved. Should it be marriage though? God created man and woman to live in union. But, it can be argued He created homosexuality too.
Love, genuine love, cannot be wrong can it?
Re: Batting for the other team
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:27 am
by PaulSacramento
RickD wrote:EssentialSacrifice wrote:It comes down to how strict we are with the definition of sin, is it just the ACT or is it the DESIRE to commit the act?
Matthew 5:28 pretty much sums it up ...
Sure. But is same sex
attraction necessarily the same as lust?
A valid question and what that is answered subjectively only, so lets look at it from another POV:
A sin is anything that is against our true nature, not only as humans but as God's image bearers.
It is a sin to DO something against our nature as defined above, that is a given, but is it a sin to WANT to do something against our nature as God's image bearers?
And that is what we are talking about, attraction IS desire and while not all desire is lust, all lust is desire.
Lust being explicit in the sexual sense where as desire is simply a strong want for someone.
BUT is that want non-sexual?
That is the issue I guess, is the attraction sexual at all? if yes then it would be a sin, if not then it wouldn't.
Re: Batting for the other team
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:30 am
by PaulSacramento
Storyteller wrote:I have absolutely no problem with homosexuality between two consenting adults and I see no reason why there cannot be a commited relationship involved. Should it be marriage though? God created man and woman to live in union. But, it can be argued He created homosexuality too.
Love, genuine love, cannot be wrong can it?
Yes, genuine love can be wrong between two ( or more) humans.
Why?
Because we are imperfect and do not always distinguish between right and wrong correctly.
It really is this simple:
Homo sapiens natural sexuality is heterosexuality.
Anything outside that norm is a deviance from the norm, the ideal, indeed the ONLY way humans can do what sex is biologically all about: procreation.
Just because two people consent to something, it doesn't make it right.
Homosexuality is a defect and "absence" of something, so God no more created it as He created evil ( an absence of good) or dark ( an absence of light) or blindness ( an absence of sight).
Re: Batting for the other team
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:32 am
by EssentialSacrifice
That is the issue I guess, is the attraction sexual at all? if yes then it would be a sin, if not then it wouldn't.
my opinion too, in either a heterosexual or homosexual relationship.
Re: Batting for the other team
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:37 am
by PaulSacramento
EssentialSacrifice wrote:That is the issue I guess, is the attraction sexual at all? if yes then it would be a sin, if not then it wouldn't.
my opinion too, in either a heterosexual or homosexual relationship.
Lust is a sin in a marriage between man and woman ??
Re: Batting for the other team
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:41 am
by EssentialSacrifice
the New Testament’s forceful rejection of homosexual behavior as well. In Romans 1, Paul attributes the homosexual desires of some to a refusal to acknowledge and worship God. He says, "For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. . . . Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them" (Rom. 1:26–28, 32).
Elsewhere Paul again warns that homosexual behavior is one of the sins that will deprive one of heaven: "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9–10, NIV).
All of Scripture teaches the unacceptability of homosexual behavior. But the rejection of this behavior is not an arbitrary prohibition. It, like other moral imperatives, is rooted in natural law—the design that God has built into human nature.
It certainly would seem the bible has spoken on this topic. It equates homosexuality with any other sin that must be subdued within the person's ability to do so... but Paul also says this...
Paul comfortingly reminds us, "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it" (1 Cor. 10:13).
Re: Batting for the other team
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:43 am
by RickD
Maybe you guys are right. Maybe I'm seeing a distinction between attraction and lust, when no distinction exists.
Re: Batting for the other team
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:51 am
by EssentialSacrifice
Lust is a sin in a marriage between man and woman ??
I was not thinking of those who are married. However, that situation is still without it's merits... marriage does not absolve one from lustful actions:
But for the Catholic Church, to lust is to seek sexual pleasure in another person solely for one’s own pleasure without regard for the other person.
This is most important as it pertains to the 2nd great commandment... treat others as you would yourself ... in other words as a Christian you would be sinning if your thoughts and actions, sexually, were completely about you and not your partner as well. I'm in love with my lover's love for me, or, I'm in love with my lover's body. Lust is still and can be an emotion of singular selfishness that does transcend marriage.
Re: Batting for the other team
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:57 am
by Kurieuo
Storyteller wrote:I have absolutely no problem with homosexuality between two consenting adults and I see no reason why there cannot be a commited relationship involved. Should it be marriage though? God created man and woman to live in union. But, it can be argued He created homosexuality too.
Love, genuine love, cannot be wrong can it?
Just for a matter for thought, I wonder if you are comfortable applying this logic to the following scenarios:
1) Brother-sister, father-daughter, mother-son relationships?
2) Adult-adolescent, adult-children relationships? Consider
this:
- "Pedophilia emerges before or during puberty, and is stable over time. It is self-discovered, not chosen. For these reasons, pedophilia has been described as a disorder of sexual preference, phenomenologically similar to a heterosexual or homosexual sexual orientation."
I believe Jac is correct in saying it's not just a matter of faith, but reason.
I mean if there are no good reasons, or it is simply a matter of faith -- such really boils down to "subjective" opinion. Right?
The reality is there are logical reasons and they can be deduced from an order found in natural law and psychological well-being.
We can objectively look to the order of nature (using a natural law theory) for insight into whether homosexuality is of a natural order or disorder.
In fact, remove all emotion and moral distaste, heterosexual pedophilia seems actually harder to try and pin as a wrongful disorder.
That said, we're sentient and psychological beings which also bare witness to an established order.
Re: Batting for the other team
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:59 am
by RickD
If lust is a sin within the bounds of marriage, then I'm afraid I'm going straight to hell. No purgatory*, straight to the fiery depths.
*yes, I know in Catholic purgatory, they eventually get to heaven.
Re: Batting for the other team
Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:04 am
by EssentialSacrifice
*yes, I know in Catholic purgatory, they eventually get to heaven.
I hate it when you read right to the end of the book before we're done !
