Evidence for God from Science

If you are a person who is against owning a gun for self defense and the protection of your family you can choose to be like that ,they can, but it is not because of what the bible teaches as a whole and Jesus does not overide or contradict other places in the bible,the bible is consistant from Genesis to Revelation.There is a difference in murder and kill.We are not to murder.

Those who overlook why Jesus told his disciples to sell what they had to buy a sword are ignoring the reason he did it and yet loving your enemies and praying for your enemies and even turning the other cheek does not over-ride or contradict Jesus telling his disciples to buy swords,these were real swords and they were not for just decorating your wall,etc at home.

Interesting how people sometimes have difficulty in discerning important differences that turn on key variables. God said do not kill, but also said to put murderers to death. It's totally amazing that anyone would equate a death caused by an act of self defense with murder. Or that a society having a just punishment for premeditated murder is doing the same as the murderer, when carrying out capital punishment. If you don't defend against one trying to kill or to cause great bodily injury, you are, in effect helping him to be a murderer. As by defending (by whatever means that might take - certainly not killing the attacker IF that can be avoided), are you not helping to PREVENT such an individual from committing a very serious evil (murder, great bodily injury, rape, etc.) that your resistance will hopefully prevent. And if an attacker is seriously injured or killed by your resistance, then who is truly responsible?

Again, why did God have Israel have an army?

Philip wrote:If you don't defend against one trying to kill or to cause great bodily injury, you are, in effect helping him to be a murderer

We killed jesus. Did he help us to be murderers by not fighting back? As I recall he had angels to help him too....a LOT of them. Sometimes he calls us not to fight back.

Re: self-defense, I think a lot can be learned in the Proverbs 26:4-5:

• 4 Answer not a fool according to his folly,
  lest you be like him yourself.
  5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
  lest he be wise in his own eyes.

There are times where answering a fool will just make you look foolish too.
And times, when answering a fool is appropriate because otherwise they and others won't know better.

Similarly, we should use wisdom and discernment regarding defense and what is best for God's kingdom which is eternal. As PaulS has said elsewhere, people just seem too quick to take another person's life. Such really is a serious thing to do, and we'll stand and answer to God for all our actions one day.

• Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. (Matt 10:16)

And finally, Christians are to "fear not" for God is with us.
So if any action is done out of fear rather than love, then I'd personally question the validity of that action.

Nessa wrote:

Philip wrote:If you don't defend against one trying to kill or to cause great bodily injury, you are, in effect helping him to be a murderer

We killed jesus. Did he help us to be murderers by not fighting back? As I recall he had angels to help him too....a LOT of them. Sometimes he calls us not to fight back.

We killed Jesus?

Nessa,

Are you advocating for reincarnation? Were you alive in another life, when Jesus was crucified?

K wrote:
finally, Christians are to "fear not" for God is with us.
So if any action is done out of fear rather than love, then I'd personally question the validity of that action.

That's interesting K. Because it's really not actually acceptable in some states, to kill a home intruder, unless one fears for his life.

I bet if you could ask, almost all people who have had someone invade their home, have been overcome with fear. Sorry to tell you that when someone bursts into your home with a weapon, and there's an immediate danger to your life and your family's lives, our natural reaction IS one of fear.

You don't seriously think that when people, specifically believers which I assume you are talking about, have someone invade their home, and they need to make a split second decision to save lives by defending themselves, they shouldn't be afraid?

It's not acceptable to kill a home intruder unless one fears for his life in some states?
Notwithstanding that Christ set a higher example, and so being conformed to His image we ought to do similar, what are you actually disagreeing with in my words --

1) That we shouldn't defend out families? I never said that.
2) That we should never feel fear? I never said that.

What I'm about to ask is not a question everyone (non-Christians) can answer.
All things being equal it is valid for one to take the life of another to defend merely their own life.

BUT, do you think it is wrong or stupid for a Christian not take the life of a non-Christian in a situation where non-Christian/s would otherwise kill them?

Perhaps you disagree with my words that a Christian ought not kill out of fear for their life.
BUT, I'm just following the logic of what we believe.

Consider that we know better than those who do not have Christ.
For we understand our lives here are finite, and there's an afterlife where any persecution or sufferings we endure will be as nothing by comparison. (Romans 8:18) And, we praise God that He endured in Christ much pain and suffering on our behalf out of love for us even though we -- humanity -- put Him to death.
BUT, we also understand not all have that and a majority are currently with one who comes to steal, kill and destroy our lives.

So then given all that, who has more the lose in an scenario where Christian or non-Christian dies:
the Christian or the non-Christian?

Now, I'm saying, a Christian should use wisdom to discern what is best according to a situation factoring in their beliefs.
And hopefully, we'd be self-controlled enough to not let ourselves be overrun with fear, anger, hatred or rage and respond merely according to such emotions. That's all really. Is there anything inherently wrong with that?

Kurieuo wrote:
It's not acceptable to kill a home intruder unless one fears for his life in some states?
Notwithstanding that Christ set a higher example, and so being conformed to His image we ought to do similar, what are you actually disagreeing with in my words --

1) That we shouldn't defend out families? I never said that.
2) That we should never feel fear? I never said that.

I'm disagreeing with what you said here:

And finally, Christians are to "fear not" for God is with us.
So if any action is done out of fear rather than love, then I'd personally question the validity of that action.

You seem to be saying that if someone is in fear for his life when an armed intruder enters his home, then acting in defense, while being afraid for one's life, necessarily means one is not acting out of love.

I would say that the emotion of fear, is a very important emotion that God gave us. One thing fear does, is it gives us a heightened sense of our surroundings. And in this case, fear is a good thing.

But I think maybe by fear, you mean how some people walk around, or live their lives always in fear of something going wrong. If that's what you mean, then I agree with you.

I'm getting the impression from some posts here, that they think that just because people have guns for protection, that somehow that means those people are living their lives in fear. I just don't think that's a fair assessment.

While I personally know people that own guns, and do live their lives in fear, I know that's not the case for every gun owner. People need to understand that in certain areas of the US, guns are a part of life. People use them to hunt, and for home defense, and personal protection.

In fact, it was kinda eye opening to me, coming from a state and more specifically, my upbringing where there were no guns. When I moved to Florida, it was something I had to get used to.

But this whole idea that everyone who has guns, somehow lives their lives in fear, is just not true.

RickD wrote:

K wrote:
finally, Christians are to "fear not" for God is with us.
So if any action is done out of fear rather than love, then I'd personally question the validity of that action.

That's interesting K. Because it's really not actually acceptable in some states, to kill a home intruder, unless one fears for his life.

I bet if you could ask, almost all people who have had someone invade their home, have been overcome with fear. Sorry to tell you that when someone bursts into your home with a weapon, and there's an immediate danger to your life and your family's lives, our natural reaction IS one of fear.

You don't seriously think that when people, specifically believers which I assume you are talking about, have someone invade their home, and they need to make a split second decision to save lives by defending themselves, they shouldn't be afraid?

I was one of those people who had an intruder and was I shaking like a leaf? Um, heck yes....knees knocked all the way down the aisle too....

BUT I dont think Kurieuo is saying its wrong to feel the fear...did Jesus never feel fear?

Its how we respond...and my intruder had no obvious weapon as such but his hand and body alone could kill me etc so of course I wasn't really any safer. But by God's grace I responded the way I should have.

No one here seems to give a shite that the intruder that you could kill could be very well going to hell...kinda like a queen in the OT who wanted initially to perserve herself rather than a nation...We are as bw said, in the other thread, dead men. We are dead men walking. As such it CAN AT TIMES be very appropriate to let some else live instead of us. Including intruders.

I don't believe everyone is running around in fear,
but I'm talking within a situation overcoming fear or hate of someone,
to use wisdom and common sense like one would in answering a fool.

I'll try post a video I saw that I believe provides an insightful situation, need to dig it out first.
And then I've got another in mind. It'll be interesting to see how everyone responds.

RickD wrote:

Nessa wrote:

Philip wrote:If you don't defend against one trying to kill or to cause great bodily injury, you are, in effect helping him to be a murderer

We killed jesus. Did he help us to be murderers by not fighting back? As I recall he had angels to help him too....a LOT of them. Sometimes he calls us not to fight back.

We killed Jesus?

Nessa,

Are you advocating for reincarnation? Were you alive in another life, when Jesus was crucified?

Yes, though not all of us were involved in the physical act

We were all part of it, I believe.

I would like to see those who are against guns for self defense make a case biblically for why you think like you do because it is not coming from the bible that you feel that way. It is just an opinion based on culture,politics,emotions,upbringing,etc.

abelcainsbrother wrote:I would like to see those who are against guns for self defense make a case biblically for why you think like you do because it is not coming from the bible that you feel that way. It is just an opinion based on culture,politics,emotions,upbringing,etc.

Isnt that sorta like what atheists say about Christianity....to do with culture..upbringng..emotions..
Just cos those things are involved doesnt negate from the truth.

And we are all arguing for.truth here