Evidence for God from Science

B. W. wrote:

Nessa wrote:...You said not to.become friends with enemies on 'their level'..what does that mean exactly?

If you love someone when.they havent earned it, then you are loving them regardless of their actions...loving someone.regardless of their action means the love is unconditional.

What does the bible say on becoming unsaved friends on their level...

1Co 15:33 NASB, "Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."

1Co 15:33 NKJV, "Do not be deceived: "Evil company corrupts good habits."


Before we discuss the subject of love - how do you define what love means?

How can love without limitations really be love at all?

What if your Husband loved every other woman in the world as much as he loved you, same way and all freely, is that really love or something else?

How would you feel about that?

Back in he 1950's -60's is about the time the term unconditional love came into its heyday of meaning. Back then, it meant something different than it does today. The Term back then was used to denote that God accepts us without our conditions by accepting His which is: absolute surrender.

This term no longer means that today. The surrender part is not mentioned nor is the conditions of John 3:16, 36. God has been turned into a great big wuvey dovey cuddly Teddy Bear in the sky. At one time the term unconditional love expressed that God changes us to love him without our conditions. Today the term unconditional love assigns conditions to God's love by saying that all folks are so worthy of his love due to our great noble value that he just greases us up with grace so all slide into heaven no matter what. See the difference?

The term unconditional love does not mean what it once did, and, in fact, today's modern definition cannot be found in the bible. John 3:16 tosses in the proverbial monkey wrench in that.

God's love is undeserved is a true statement because by it he provides the means in which life can exist for all on this planet. God takes care of and nurtures folks undeserved in order to wake them up to the reality that they put Christ on the cross evidenced by their treatment of others and that they need to be expunged from this by his free gift. That gift is meant to change us to love and have faith in him for who He is. His love divides the house of humanity between those who are his from those who are not. Jesus mentioned that he came to bring a sword, not a box of roses.

The term unconditional love in modern terms today is not supported in the bible, however, as it once was used is...

...that God accepts us without our conditions by our accepting His which is: absolute surrender, which takes faith and that faith builds our love in him and changes. He sends the Holy Spirit to His own to seal them and lead them home through life's battles and victories. John 3:36 is true
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Ok, If my hubby loved other women like he did me, then would I stop loving him with God's unconditional love? Would God stop loving him? Ultimately love seeks the best, now I would pray and ask God what to do.

I have watched a powerful movie (cant remember the name) and the hubby was cheating and even bringing the girl back to the house once. African culture I think? Now the wife was, well, mad. She let it rip. And he slapped her. You know what she did...wait for it.....PRAY.and she went back to the husband and apologised. She apologised to HIM.

Did God tell her to just get the hell out? No. She stayed and she prayed..She cried out to God like Hannah. She would make dinner for her hubby and he would mock her infront.of friends..Lots of stuff...but in the end he broke. Left the other girl and with a broken ripped up heart, God saved him and blessed their marriage. The wife suffered much, cos she sacrificed much. Loved muched

What? you mean God might possibly ask someone to stay and love unconditionally in THAT way? What? you mean God might ask you to not defend yourself? And maybe never with a gun?

What kind of God would do that?
The God of the bible

And Im not saying that he wouldnt tell another wife to leave instead. Theres more than one outcome to loving unconditionally.

Love seeks.the best! And it was for his best that she stay. What about her best tho? It was BEST for US that jesus died. It was God's will to crush him. Was that the best thing to do to Jesus? Um no, he didnt even want it in the garden...take this cup, father...

Nessa wrote:...Ok, If my hubby loved other women like he did me, then would I stop loving him with God's unconditional love? Would God stop loving him? Ultimately love seeks the best, now I would pray and ask God what to do.

I have watched a powerful movie (cant remember the name) and the hubby was cheating and even bringing the girl back to the house once. African culture I think? Now the wife was, well, mad. She let it rip. And he slapped her. You know what she did...wait for it.....PRAY.and she went back to the husband and apologised. She apologised to HIM.

Did God tell her to just get the hell out? No. She stayed and she prayed..She cried out to God like Hannah. She would make dinner for her hubby and he would mock her infront.of friends..Lots of stuff...but in the end he broke. Left the other girl and with a broken ripped up heart, God saved him and blessed their marriage. The wife suffered much, cos she sacrificed much. Loved muched

What? you mean God might possibly ask someone to stay and love unconditionally in THAT way? What? you mean God might ask you to not defend yourself? And maybe never with a gun?

What kind of God would do that?
The God of the bible

And Im not saying that he wouldnt tell another wife to leave instead. Theres more than one outcome to loving unconditionally.

Love seeks.the best! And it was for his best that she stay. What about her best tho? It was BEST for US that jesus died. It was God's will to crush him. Was that the best thing to do to Jesus? Um no, he didnt even want it in the garden...take this cup, father...

I am not sure you are understanding the point being made:

As mentioned: Back in he 1950's -60's is about the time the term unconditional love came into its heyday of meaning. Back then, it meant something different than it does today. The Term back then was used to denote that God accepts us without our conditions by our accepting His which comes by absolute surrender.

This term no longer means that today. The surrender part is not mentioned nor is the conditions of John 3:16, 36. God has been turned into a great big wuvey dovey cuddly Teddy Bear in the sky. At one time the term unconditional love expressed that God changes us to love him without our conditions involved.

Today the term unconditional love assigns conditions to God's love by saying that all folks are so worthy of his love due to our great noble value that he just greases us up with grace so all slide into heaven no matter what. See the difference The modern day message about God's love is no more that the old - I'm Okay, Your Okay - chant of pop psychology mixed in with a few bible verses.

The term unconditional love does not mean what it once did, and, in fact, today's modern definition cannot be found in the bible. John 3:16 tosses in the proverbial monkey wrench in that.

God's love will not save everyone. Nor will our acts of love either save everyone. God saves those who respond to his love, awoken by it, and rejects those that refuse it. God's love allows choice or it wouldn't be love. People do indeed reject God's love outright or by seeking to take advantage of it for their own ends. God's love always knocks on everyone's hearts door. Some open, others will not. God's love presents a choice when before there was none.

For some reason, this is difficult to grasp. Though I can't see why it is so hard for this modern era to understand it. It is rather immature and naive to assume agape love will save everyone, every time, in all occasions. It will not, in fact, it will harden the hearts of some increasing their abuse,or indolence, or manipulation.

Love does not seek its own, so the husband who seeks his own way with all the ladies does not value his wife. A wife showing love to win him back no matter what, the result is the wife being used. It might make a nice movie but life is not like the movies. In rare cases, it might work, but the majority cases the husband finds another and another new and so long to the wife. A Man like that does not love his wife. He has a case of the wandering obelisk...

Then one day the wife gets Aids, cast out of the house, refuses lawyers and alimony and penniless but oh she loves her husband unconditionally just hope'n he will change because love wins every time, so she dies. The husband soon dies too. She goes to heaven because trusted Christ alone and not for her unconditional love works As for the husband, he went to Hell. He rejected his wife's love and will pay the price - can you see this?

That is why it is so important to be guided by the Holy Spirit to discern the times - Eccl 3:1-8 - correctly and know what one is to do.

Blessings
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B. W. wrote:

Nessa wrote:...Ok, If my hubby loved other women like he did me, then would I stop loving him with God's unconditional love? Would God stop loving him? Ultimately love seeks the best, now I would pray and ask God what to do.

I have watched a powerful movie (cant remember the name) and the hubby was cheating and even bringing the girl back to the house once. African culture I think? Now the wife was, well, mad. She let it rip. And he slapped her. You know what she did...wait for it.....PRAY.and she went back to the husband and apologised. She apologised to HIM.

Did God tell her to just get the hell out? No. She stayed and she prayed..She cried out to God like Hannah. She would make dinner for her hubby and he would mock her infront.of friends..Lots of stuff...but in the end he broke. Left the other girl and with a broken ripped up heart, God saved him and blessed their marriage. The wife suffered much, cos she sacrificed much. Loved muched

What? you mean God might possibly ask someone to stay and love unconditionally in THAT way? What? you mean God might ask you to not defend yourself? And maybe never with a gun?

What kind of God would do that?
The God of the bible

And Im not saying that he wouldnt tell another wife to leave instead. Theres more than one outcome to loving unconditionally.

Love seeks.the best! And it was for his best that she stay. What about her best tho? It was BEST for US that jesus died. It was God's will to crush him. Was that the best thing to do to Jesus? Um no, he didnt even want it in the garden...take this cup, father...

I am not sure you are understanding the point being made:

As mentioned: Back in he 1950's -60's is about the time the term unconditional love came into its heyday of meaning. Back then, it meant something different than it does today. The Term back then was used to denote that God accepts us without our conditions by our accepting His which comes by absolute surrender.

This term no longer means that today. The surrender part is not mentioned nor is the conditions of John 3:16, 36. God has been turned into a great big wuvey dovey cuddly Teddy Bear in the sky. At one time the term unconditional love expressed that God changes us to love him without our conditions involved.

Today the term unconditional love assigns conditions to God's love by saying that all folks are so worthy of his love due to our great noble value that he just greases us up with grace so all slide into heaven no matter what. See the difference The modern day message about God's love is no more that the old - I'm Okay, Your Okay - chant of pop psychology mixed in with a few bible verses.

The term unconditional love does not mean what it once did, and, in fact, today's modern definition cannot be found in the bible. John 3:16 tosses in the proverbial monkey wrench in that.

God's love will not save everyone. Nor will our acts of love either save everyone. God saves those who respond to his love, awoken by it, and rejects those that refuse it. God's love allows choice or it wouldn't be love. People do indeed reject God's love outright or by seeking to take advantage of it for their own ends. God's love always knocks on everyone's hearts door. Some open, others will not. God's love presents a choice when before there was none.

For some reason, this is difficult to grasp. Though I can't see why it is so hard for this modern era to understand it. It is rather immature and naive to assume agape love will save everyone, every time, in all occasions. It will not, in fact, it will harden the hearts of some increasing their abuse,or indolence, or manipulation.

Love does not seek its own, so the husband who seeks his own way with all the ladies does not value his wife. A wife showing love to win him back no matter what, the result is the wife being used. It might make a nice movie but life is not like the movies. In rare cases, it might work, but the majority cases the husband finds another and another new and so long to the wife. A Man like that does not love his wife. He has a case of the wandering obelisk...

Then one day the wife gets Aids, cast out of the house, refuses lawyers and alimony and penniless but oh she loves her husband unconditionally just hope'n he will change because love wins every time, so she dies. The husband soon dies too. She goes to heaven because trusted Christ alone and not for her unconditional love works As for the husband, he went to Hell. He rejected his wife's love and will pay the price - can you see this?

That is why it is so important to be guided by the Holy Spirit to discern the times - Eccl 3:1-8 - correctly and know what one is to do.

Blessings
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Do you consider me an universalist?
You cant force someone to love you and there will always be people who choose not to love God.
Therefore, will be eternally seperated from Him.

When did God start loving me? When I turned to him? Did he therefore hate me in the womb?
Maybe he loved me as a child but as soon as I got to the age of 'accountability' he stopped and then loved me again when I made him my Saviour?

God seems to be just a little bit fickle in his loving me according to your conditional love.

He either loves me or he doesnt. Its not part time, when the mood strikes him, when justice has been served. He has always loved me or he always hasnt loved me.

If he has always loved me ONLY cos He knew one day I would love him then Im not sure I can follow a God like that nor would I want too.

BW,
Would you consider the following lyrics a lie?

Nessa wrote:...Do you consider me an universalist?
You cant force someone to love you and there will always be people who choose not to love God.
Therefore, will be eternally seperated from Him.

When did God start loving me? When I turned to him? Did he therefore hate me in the womb?
Maybe he loved me as a child but as soon as I got to the age of 'accountability' he stopped and then loved me again when I made him my Saviour?

God seems to be just a little bit fickle in his loving me according to your conditional love.

He either loves me or he doesnt. Its not part time, when the mood strikes him, when justice has been served. He has always loved me or he always hasnt loved me.

If he has always loved me ONLY cos He knew one day I would love him then Im not sure I can follow a God like that nor would I want too.

I am not saying you are a universalist. I was making the point that the term unconditional love does not mean the same thing as it once did and therefore the modern rendering of this term brings confusion and bad doctrine. You have two folks speaking on God's unconditioned love. One person perceives it as it was once understood and the other understands the modern version. Both go their ways after speaking to to each other with two different meanings.

For example, think of the word democracy. One person interprets it to be free market economy where folks can freely improve their lives. Another interprets democracy to mean govt control of all things to redistribute wealth. Both go their way thinking each agrees with each other. However, not so.

I was pointing out that the same goes for God's unconditional love. At one time the term meant that God accepts us without our conditions by our accepting His which comes by absolute surrender. This is taught in the bible.

Romans 5:6,7,8,9,10,11 - 1 Peter 3:18 - Romans 3:5 - Ephesians 2:7 - John 3:36

God see's humanity as enemies. His wrath abides on us all. His love is just and seeks out those lost rebels who will freely accept His great love. If God's love did not offer a choice to be reconciled back to himself and do the work himself to make it possible for folks t freely respond to his offer of reconciliation, then that is not agape. God's love reveals his nature of love offered thru the life, Crucifixion, Resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the infilling of the holy Spirit at one's New Birth. His Love will not save everybody. His love will divide out those who will reject his love-abuse it, etc from those that will surrender to it without their conditions and terms.

That is in it simplest broad brush manner is what the bible teaches on God's unconditional love. Other can explain it better than I can. John 3:16 God so loved the world that he Gave... that whosoever believes...will not perish . God's love for all humanity in this verse does not mean what the moderns think it means.

God's nature is to love, agape, and that word contains the elements of taking care of, tending, building up, edifying, chastening, cherishing, in order for God's true order to be established. Deut 7:7,8,9 reveals a principle to us today that He love's us not because we are great wonderful people but rather to keep his word. Agape love will have a person keep their word, promises, and oaths. I suggest folks take the time and look at the words to Adam and Eve in Gen 1:26-31, to Abraham, to Noah etc and etc and see for themselves why God is still busy cultivating and taking care of, tending, building up, edifying, chastening, cherishing, this world of people who are hell bent to be rebels in order for God's true order to be established (Rev 21:1-27).

The modern concept of God's love is that we are wonderful great people and that God's agape will leave no one behind, make no demands to change ones ways, so tolerant and cuddly, warn and all fuzzy. That He saved because he loves all human beings in such manner to let all into heaven changing them there. As stated above...

Today the term unconditional love assigns conditions to God's love by saying that all folks are so worthy of his love due to our great noble value that he just greases us up with grace so all slide into heaven no matter what. See the difference The modern day message about God's love is no more that the old - I'm Okay, Your Okay - chant of pop psychology mixed in with a few bible verses.

Let me conclude with what God's unconditional love means from the bible:

Does God love all humanity, Yes! He loved us enough to take care of all, unconditionally allowing us to freely live our lives as rebels. He makes the rain fall on the just and unjust. He lets people put him on trial, mock, beat him, blame him for all ills in life, betray, bear false witness against him and watches how we all do these things to each other.

He keeps us alive so his love will confront us with a free choice to be reconciled and made free by his hand, the living Word, Jesus Christ paid for by the blood of Christ. This blood speaks how He loves so much to awaken us to our rebellion and dysfunctional ways, paying the price for our sin (that death penalty) on our behalf. So that those so awoken to his great love can be saved and His oath fulfilled and they restored into the Kingdom of his dear Son's love

Col 1:12-14, "...giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 3 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins." NKJV

That is true love. Presenting a choice when before there was none to a world of sinners (disunctionaries) hell bent to demand things their way or the highway.

In that is the love of God to the world. To save the lost because His great love burns with wrath that cannot be contained when His appointed time comes. He saves not because we are so nice sweet and good. He saved us from His wrath by offering a free choice to remain as one is, fallen, or become His own, loosed from dysfunction, free and his own, reconciled redeemed.

Make no mistake about it. God's wrath is real. It is concluded in the book of Revelation. Right now is the hour, the moment for salvation form God who desires to restore His true love to restore us back to humanities original design and purposes.

The unsaved do not recognize God's love because of bringing their conditions to bargain with God, or themselves, to avoid consequences of the ruin, dysfunction, that they help to spread. God so loved the world that he did not want to leave people in that state of ruin but rather release them from it based upon his condition of grace that activates our faith to trust him (one who died in our place) that restores ones Love back toward God.

Now re-read John 3:14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21 and what do you see...
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Along with the quote above, I am posting a response regarding God's Love from another thread here from the Danger to the West Thread... because it fits here more than on that thread... so one can continues to discuss if one so chooses.

Nessa wrote:

B. W. wrote:God's great agape love still demands absolute surrender to Him.

I dont believe love demands its own way as such.

Jesus made no demands on the cross. He freely laid down his life.

God's love is tough but it doesnt demand.

It woos, it pleads, it passionately seeks out, it relentlessly pursues ..I like how Tozer puts it in one of his writings 'hound of heaven'

As Tozar said, "...pleads, it passionately seeks out, it relentlessly pursues" suggest that it seeks to conquer by one's surrender to it or have them reject it totally. That is still a demand.

People reject God's love by their own free volition. The rejection is foreknown by God yet he still confronts all with a choice. Love that does not allow choice is not just. As A. W. Tozar said, “Justice is not something God has. Justice is something that God is.”

Next, people like to chant, "Love conquers all."

Either one surrenders to God on his terms of free grace or they do not. In both cases, that is how God's love conquers. His love conquers in this regards, by one finding eternal life and another finding eternal recompense. In both cases, his love conquers when one gives in to his overtures or it conquers by banishing away the corrupt and profane who manipulate and abuse his love in perfect just eternal recompense. Indeed, God's Love conquers one way or another.

Again Mr Tozar writes...

“Let us say it again: The Universal Presence is a fact. God is here. The whole universe is alive with His life. And He is no strange or foreign God, but the familiar Father of our Lord Jesus Christ whose love has for these thousands of years enfolded the sinful race of men. And always He is trying to get our attention, to reveal Himself to us, to communicate with us. We have within us the ability to know Him if we will but respond to His overtures. (And this we call pursuing God!) We will know Him in increasing degree as our receptivity becomes more perfect by faith and love and practice.”
― A.W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God

“We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. "No man can come to me," said our Lord, "except the Father which hath sent me draw him," and it is by this very prevenient drawing that God takes from us every vestige of credit for the act of coming. The impulse to pursue God originates with God, but the outworking of that impulse is our following hard after Him; and all the time we are pursuing Him we are already in His hand: "Thy right hand upholdeth me.”
― A.W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God

“God must do everything for us. Our part is to yield and trust”
― A.W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God

You see Nessa, A W Tozar is stating what I have been stating. I am well read in Tozar, I have his books and read and re-read them all. More quotes below...

“The doctrine of justification by faith—a Biblical truth, and a blessed relief from sterile legalism and unavailing self-effort—has in our time fallen into evil company and been interpreted by many in such manner as actually to bar men from the knowledge of God. The whole transaction of religious conversion has been made mechanical and spiritless. Faith may now be exercised without a jar to the moral life and without embarrassment to the Adamic ego. Christ may be "received" without creating any special love for Him in the soul of the receiver. The man is "saved," but he is not hungry nor thirsty after God. In fact he is specifically taught to be satisfied and encouraged to be content with little.”
― A.W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God

The modern version of God's love currently in vogues 2015 actually permits and produces what Tozar warns about in the quote above. There is no jar in human moral life, no life altering change, just a love that let's one continue unchanged and unchecked as though nothing happened at all. More Tozar quoted below:

“...bring us back again into right and eternal relationship with Himself. This required that our sins be disposed of satisfactorily, that a full reconciliation be effected and the way opened for us to return again into conscious communion with God and to live again in the Presence as before. Then by His prevenient working within us He moves us to return. This first comes to our notice when our restless hearts feel a yearning for the Presence of God and we say within ourselves, "I will arise and go to my Father." That is the first step, and as the Chinese sage Lao-tze has said, "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a first step.”
― A.W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God

“At the heart of the Christian message is God Himself waiting for His redeemed children to push in to conscious awareness of His Presence.”
― A.W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God

God's love will not force people to love him, as the modern era 2015 Hyper Grace/Emergent Church teachings allude to and renders. God's love demands our surrender to God, unconditionally. We cannot bring our work conditions or notions of love in the equation. The notion that humanity is so noble, decent, loving, and so good as the reason why God chose to save people because human beings are worthy to be saved because we are so good, would mean God saved humanity based upon their works, not his. Bible does not teach this. Look at what Tozar said below:

“Anyone who might feel reluctant to surrender his will to the will of another should remember Jesus' words, "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." We must of necessity be servant to someone, either to God or to sin. The sinner prides himself on his independence, completely overlooking the fact that he is the weak slave of the sins that rule his members. The man who surrenders to Christ exchanges a cruel slave driver for a kind and gentle Master whose yoke is easy and whose burden is light.”
― A.W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God

“We must invite the cross to do its deadly work within us. We must bring our self-sins to the cross for judgment. We must prepare ourselves for an ordeal of suffering in some measure like that through which our Saviour passed when He suffered under Pontius Pilate. Let us remember: when we talk of the rending of the veil we are speaking in a figure, and the thought of it is poetical, almost pleasant; but in actuality there is nothing pleasant about it. In human experience that veil is made of living spiritual tissue; it is composed of the sentient, quivering stuff of which our whole beings consist, and to touch it is to touch us where we feel pain. To tear it away is to injure us, to hurt us and make us bleed. To say otherwise is to make the cross no cross and death no death at all. It is never fun to die. To rip through the dear and tender stuff of which life is made can never be anything but deeply painful. Yet that is what the cross did to Jesus and it is what the cross would do to every man to set him free.”
― A.W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God

“Anyone who might feel reluctant to surrender his will to the will of another should remember Jesus' words, "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." We must of necessity be servant to someone, either to God or to sin.”
― A.W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God

“It is doubtful whether God can bless a man greatly until He has hurt him deeply.”
― A.W. Tozer

“The reason why many are still troubled, still seeking, still making little forward progress is because they haven't yet come to the end of themselves. We're still trying to give orders, and interfering with God's work within us. ”
― A.W. Tozer

The current modern 2015 era doctrines that come mostly from the Hyper Grace movement and Emergent Church concerning God's love in actuality are giving orders to God and interfere with the work of God within a person.

Nessa, God's blessings rain upon you and be released of your sins in Jesus' name!
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You can bring up what others believe love is and how they twist it e.g stuff that lines up with Bell and his 'Love Win's' dodgey crap or you can just address me and what I believe. I'd prefer the latter.

I dont believe that love win's e.g God is going to eventually get everything he wants. The bible says he is not willing for anybody to perish. Some however will perish.

Now I am starting to get this 'picture' of what God is like from your posts...a kind of God that extends limited goodwill and conditional love to unbelievers e.g they get the rain and sun too.

But his love is only unconditional for us....tho, even that Im not sure you believe?

I have read some of Tozers books and from the quotes above, I havent seen anything I disagree on I dont think. Tho, the bible specifically says God IS love so Im not sure Id necessarily equate that God IS justice in the exact same way. Tho God carries out perfect justice for sure.

I believe God accepts us where we are at and loves us unconditionally BUT at the same time I dont believe God to be some divine enabler to keep us where we are at or to want us to stay where we are at...he accepted the woman caught in adultery, forgave her and instructed her to sin no more.

His agape love did not 'demand' anything of her. It doesn't 'demand' anything of us. His justice requires a heck of a lot tho cos we have sinned and have fallen short.

Love does not demand its own way BUT it does seek our ultimate best.

Love cant demand and it can't force.

Love is freely given with an open hand not restricted with a closed fist.

Nessa, glad to hear that you are not giving the Bell doctrine any credence. That is good!

We actually agree more than we disagree.

God's love relentlessly pursues lost humanity but lost humanity will not relentlessly pursue God. God's love confronts folks with a choice when before there was none to find rest and purpose of being in God alone or reject that completely.

That is inline with an attribute of the Justice of God's Love permitting: Free moral agency. The Lord loves His own and those that reject his life altering-for-the-better-love, that cherishing, edifying chastening, kind of love that raises one out of the dung hill, the bible is clear, His soul hates and his wrath abides upon them.

In fact his wrath abides on us all. He sent forth Jesus to expose what sin (dysfunction is) and cure it in a just manner according to one's response to his call of reconciliation. His Love poses before us a - surrender to Him ye rebel and find the grace and mercy of the Lord. We are saved from his wrath. Those that surrender, find life a real life no-one can take from them. No matter the blessings or hardships or pain - his love will not let His own go. He has us as well as heals us from our tears this fallen ill world brings.

God's love takes care of all just as it is written in Psalms 147:1-20, Psalms 104:27-28, Psalms 136:25, Psalms 145:15-16, Job 38:41, and Mat 6:26. Romans 1:16-32 speaks of this that folks do not acknowledge God no matter his loving provision, instead they game his love, abuse his love, manipulate it, take it for granted and take advantage of his love in diverse ways.

So God awakens people that they need him by the testimony/gospel message of Jesus Christ to return to him. Many reject and thus as John 3:36 states - God's wrath (his righteous love angered) abides on them. He offers all a free escape but not all will accept it. Those that do not surrender to his love, well, face eternal recompense for how they treat each other and himself.

To gain a better idea of what I am saying, I suggest reading Andrew Murray's book, Absolute Surrender, which can be read on line or downloaded from:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/murray/surrender.html

Read one short chapter at a time in order as each chapter build upon the each other in order of appearance. In this you might see what I have been trying to convey.

Blessings...
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One other thing to add more food for thought...

At one time, people came to live in another country to assimilate into that countries culture and values. Nowadays people demand that a host country assimilate to them.

God does not assimilate to our demands about love, we instead assimilate to God's love... which changes us.

For example: Rom 12:9 mentions this: Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good. NASB

We are constantly told to embrace evil in order to win evil over to goodness yet what? Abhor what is evil?

God's reveals evil, exposes it, warns about it, and fights against it. Tells folks to turn away from evil by turning to him. God will punish evil, not embrace it nor will he assimilate to its demands.

God's Love shouts surrender! Assimilate to His love, its free and already demonstrated and paid for by a costly sacrifice so we can now assimilate to God's love when before we could not.

God's love warns and tells us: Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good.

Hope this helps a bit more...
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I think context is vital in this regard...
Not taking a piece of scripture but understanding it in its entirety.
Let's take at look at Romans;
Chapter 12
9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. 10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; 11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; 13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.

17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[a] says the Lord. 20 Therefore

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

So this chapter teaches us to abhor evil.
But overcome such evil with good.
The reoccurring theme throughout the New Testament.
Give to your enemy.
Feed him.
Give him a drink.
Be a decent person.
It's not rocket science.
By golly our entire scripture speaks of such.
Treat others with kindnes, goodness, empathy and understanding.
It's not an airy fairy understanding of Jesus.
But rather what He taught.
What He lived.
To wash the feet of another
Can you imagine that??
The blessed Lord washing the feet of those below Him.
The hardest lesson to learn.
Humility.
And unconditional love,
Not how we even try to theologically understand it because we ain't capable of it.
Love that abhors evil but loves regardless.
That's a love that's only possible through Christ.
That rejects what the world says but embraces what Is possible through the light and love of Christ.
It's not easy.
Try loving someone that doesn't deserve it. It sucks.
Its easy to love those we think deserve it.
Abhor what is evil is easy.
But to truly love regardless comes from a place I am not capable of.
That is spiritual understanding.
Forgiveness beyond what is deemed comprehensible but that is our calling.
Having a heart beyond what the world says is acceptable.
loving regardless.
Accepting when we don't want too.
Getting on our knees and washing the feet of those that do not deserve it.
Because Jesus did so for us,

We did not deserve it.
But yet He showed us compassion
He overcame evil with good.
I can't even begin to emulate that but I'm gonna try.
Not in lip service but in deed.

Abhor evil but smother it in love
That's what Jesus taught

Great post Melanie,

Here are a few more thoughts on this matter: When one reads John 10:25-31 it is interesting that a person will see that God will not let his people go, nor are they able to leave him either. Verse 31 explains the reaction many folks have to Jesus's own words and what Hebrews 13:5-6 shares. Those truly who surrender to His love are made secure in His love as they have been predestined per Rom 8:29,30,31,32,33,34,35. Predestined to be assimilated into God's love, John 17:26.

"...He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love," Col 1:13, NKJV

This assimilation is a process. It brings healing to the soul, binds up the brokenhearted, nurtures the good news to the afflicted, helps proclaim liberty to those held captive, and brings freedom those prisoners held fast to bondages. Proclaims now the time God's favor has come and that there is an accounting. Just as Isaiah 61:1,2,3,4 states and Jesus quoted. We are to learn to walk as 1 John 2:6 states.

That is how we love people, with the same love from God that seeks to assimilate others into the deepness and vastness of God himself, deep into his virtues mentioned in Isa 61:1-4. A. W. Tozer speaks of this a lot.

When you add that to the mix, so to speak, it gives clarity in how we are to love other people while exercising practical knowledge in doing so. This knowledge comes from God and he guides what we are to do, when, and how. That is why I mentioned Eccl 3:1-8 as it shares on this in brief. The ability to carry it out and how to do these things comes from God, not us.

You will find God's love overwhelming, however, realized this as well too: not all people will. In fact, you will find people who seek to exploit and manipulate God's love as well as desecrate it. God's love is offered to them in abundance, yet, they refuse it of their own free volition. These folks will be held to account as they demand God to assimilate to them. The point of surrender is rejected by them.

However, those that accept God's love surrender to it and by surrender, assimilated into God's life altering love given freely. Surrender comes by faith. One has faith to surrender to so great a love God reveals or remain captive to faith in themselves and reject His life changing offer of rest. (Anyone reading need this rest?)

One of the greatest exploiters and manipulators of God's love is the Devil and his minions who take captive people to do their collective will. In doing so they capture by slandering God's character, blaspheming God's nature, lie/mock/scorn/ his dwelling place heaven and lie about the afterlife.

They will bring accusations saying God is unfair for allowing a sick child to die, allowing disease, and even evil in the world never realizing that the justice of God's love allows free moral agency to return to him and has a better way that ends all this. Such folks fail to see that they and humanity are the cause of all sickness in the world and look for a scapegoat to blame instead of themselves.

God's justice of love would not be love if it prevented people from learning right from wrong. If his love made people automatons, that too is not the justice of God's love. Such people seek to kill God and ruin the faith of his people by their words and deeds. They spread their corruption to the following generations: abuse, neglect, abandonment, rejection, exploitation, hubris, fear, hurt, revenge, bitterness, lust to make one feel significant - important. These things bring ruin and folks are held captive to these things and reject God's only cure completely. (Reader have you been victim and a spreader of these things?)

Let me share God's love in action, in how to love such people: Jesus hung upon the cross and declared, "Father, Papa, release, untie them, for they know not what they do!"

The Greek word forgiveness means release, untie them, unbind the charges against them.

In essence, Jesus, released the ability to untie and unbind those held captive by simply believing in him (returning to him) so they can find his rest for their lives. This believing is surrendering - assimilating into God's Love which takes faith: a faith in his work on the cross that exposed and defines our human sin and nailed our transgressions to the cross of his love proved.

So that, "Father, Papa, release, untie them, for they know not what they do!" can be actualized in those that return to him.

That is God's love displayed and the type we learn to display as well knowing full well that there will be those that reject this completely having no escape from judgment from the things they do. Others we save, making a distinction. God's love is not gullible and it will not waste time continuing casting pearls before swine. (Reader which are you?)

What the modern popular concepts and teaching on God's love in many churches teaches is gullibility and duping in such manner as to stain God's great love altogether. Again: "Father, Papa, release, unite them, for they know not what they do!"

Remember, God's kind of love does not rejoice in iniquity but rejoices in truth!

The truth is this: reader, you can be free from the wounds received in life that is causing all your abandonment, abuse, neglect, rejection, exploitation, hubris, fear, hurt, revenge, bitterness, lust that enslaves you feel to significant to mask the pain in the heart you feel. This freedom comes by surrendering to God's love. The cross of Jesus takes care of all our wrongs. So place yourself into love of Jesus, God's hand will hold you and set you free, untie your heart to really live in a manner you never thought possible.

Ask this now: Heavenly Father forgive me, release me, untie me for I am a sinner so dysfunctional, forgive me I pray in Jesus Name - fill me with you Holy Spirit and teach me your ways.

Now, I pray: "Father, Papa, release, untie them, undo the charges against them for they know not what they do!"

Amen.
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B.W I agree with so much of what you say..
So many of us have been saved through Christ from abuse, neglect, abandonment, fear and hurt and have turned our lives around in the most magnificent of ways.
Evil seeks to destroy and leave helpless anyone that does not hold onto our Saviour.
He will use hurt, revenge, hopelessness, helplessness, abuse, and the exploited.
People who stood once were we stood.
There's nothing pretty about it,
There are scars, there is anger, bitterness, dissapointment and resentment.
Those that have lived it, experienced it, and triumphed know how utterly hopeless that experience is.
There is no freedom.

A freedom we know only exists in Jesus.
But where does that leave those that have freedom?
How do we respond to those that are standing where we once stood?
How do we treat them?
Do we take what we have and hide it away? Do we act like they are unworthy? Do we forget where we came from?
Or do we understand that evil robs people of their freedom. It does so when it leaves them alone, and helpless, and angry and bitter and abandoned.
People who have these feelings are combative, they have lived the hard life, they have seen dissapointment, their hearts have been left cold.
How do we combat that?
Do we treat them with disdain?
Or do we do something so entirely different to what the world does and do we treat them lovingly regardless, of anything.
Regardless if they are worthy, because neither are we, and some of have come from a place where we were far from worthy ourselves.
Our Christian walk must be by humility. For the grace go I. Never forgetting the depths of despair we came from to get to where we are.

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.Do not be conceited.

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with goodness.

Revenge is mine says the Lord.
On the contrary;
if your enemy is hungry feed him.
Give him a drink

It is not our place to act in any way but graciously.
We don't always do so but that is our ideal.
Revenge does not belong to us.
It belongs to the Lord.
Our place is to be servants to Jesus,
To treat our enemies with justice. A justice they would not give to us. That does not make us weak but emulating our teacher.
Strength comes in mercy, forgiveness, and understanding.
Even when we don't understand why they deserve it, someone came to us and gave us such love long before we deserved it ourselves.

melanie wrote:B.W I agree with so much of what you say..
So many of us have been saved through Christ from abuse, neglect, abandonment, fear and hurt and have turned our lives around in the most magnificent of ways.
Evil seeks to destroy and leave helpless anyone that does not hold onto our Saviour.
He will use hurt, revenge, hopelessness, helplessness, abuse, and the exploited.
People who stood once were we stood.
There's nothing pretty about it,
There are scars, there is anger, bitterness, dissapointment and resentment.
Those that have lived it, experienced it, and triumphed know how utterly hopeless that experience is.
There is no freedom.

A freedom we know only exists in Jesus.
But where does that leave those that have freedom?
How do we respond to those that are standing where we once stood?
How do we treat them?
Do we take what we have and hide it away? Do we act like they are unworthy? Do we forget where we came from?
Or do we understand that evil robs people of their freedom. It does so when it leaves them alone, and helpless, and angry and bitter and abandoned.
People who have these feelings are combative, they have lived the hard life, they have seen dissapointment, their hearts have been left cold.
How do we combat that?
Do we treat them with disdain?
Or do we do something so entirely different to what the world does and do we treat them lovingly regardless, of anything.
Regardless if they are worthy, because neither are we, and some of have come from a place where we were far from worthy ourselves.
Our Christian walk must be by humility. For the grace go I. Never forgetting the depths of despair we came from to get to where we are.

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.Do not be conceited.

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with goodness.

Revenge is mine says the Lord.
On the contrary;
if your enemy is hungry feed him.
Give him a drink

It is not our place to act in any way but graciously.
We don't always do so but that is our ideal.
Revenge does not belong to us.
It belongs to the Lord.
Our place is to be servants to Jesus,
To treat our enemies with justice. A justice they would not give to us. That does not make us weak but emulating our teacher.
Strength comes in mercy, forgiveness, and understanding.
Even when we don't understand why they deserve it, someone came to us and gave us such love long before we deserved it ourselves.

Excellent Mel and very well said...

I would add that there is a correct time to treat nation state enemies with mercy, forgiveness, and understanding after they have been thoroughly defeated.There are also times when taking the moral high road of mercy, forgiveness, and understanding in all circumstance in all times leads to enemies exploiting this philosophy to kill and enslave.

For example, you folks in NZ and Australia, the UK, and The USA did so in WW2 after defeating Germany, Italy, and Japan - show mercy, forgiveness, and understanding to enemies. However, doing that before WW2 with these nations would have ensured that you folks in the Pacific regions would be speaking Japanese and the rest of the world German, where millions would be living as enslaved and total ethnic cleansing actualized.

One must use God's wisdom on when to and how to exercise mercy, forgiveness, and understanding towards enemies.

Next, there are those that seek to destroy a Christian's reputation at work, in a family, and even here on line. Yes, displaying mercy, forgiveness, and understanding to such folks does rain fires of conviction upon such that God can later use to have them become born again. Others seeing your plight indeed gains public support as it shakes social conscience to change its ways back to God's ways. There is a time and season for this but it is not for all seasons.

Also standing up to evil malevolent folks to protect others from their malevolence is also justice and requires courage to fight back. That too is agape love. The book of Revelation chapter 19 speaks of such love from God in action.

However a love that says, I cannot fight back and defend against acts of cruel malevolency because showing mercy forgiveness and understating will win the viciously malevolent over is not justice, nor wise, or loving. Such thoughts as this manipulate Christians into inaction to truly defend the weak, etc and etc.

Yes, there is a time and place and purpose and season for us under Heaven's Kingdom. God will teach his own what time it is and grant us the courage to carry it through.

God's Blessings to all
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Posted on another thread..

B.W wrote:Does God love the Muslims?

Most likely he loves only those that he foreknows will forsake Islam and become Christian, the rest, as Proverbs 6:16-19 states, he hates. God appears to be awakening those he foreknows in marvelous ways and they warn us of the dangers of Islam - yet many will not listen. Recall that there are two kind of people: The children of God/light and the children of darkness/the evil one. We who are now Christians were all at one time God's enemies too, but he saved us by the blood of Jesus awakening us to his grace. He will do so for any people. Let's not be naive about Islam's true intent

If God doesn't not love all muslims......

Then why should I?