Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:Paul,

The Olivet Discourse is about Christ's millennial kingdom. It's not meant to be applied to the eternal life of all believers.

How would a first century Jew have seen it Rick?
The parable of the sheep and goats is not one of those "scratch our head" parables.
It is one of Jesus' more clear and explicit statements on the day of Judgment and falls perfectly in line with what He says in John 5.
Again, I have no problem with anyone disagree with my view, just that saying it isn't scriptural when it is explicitly stated in scripture is, well, wrong.

My point is simply this:
Scripture states plainly and explicitly that believers will not be judged ( John 5).
It states that there will be a judgment for those that do good and those that don't ( John 5 and Matthew 25).

Paul,

Your view isn't scriptural because you misinterpret Matthew 25, to back the view.

Nobody is disagreeing with you that believers won't be judged in regards to their eternal life.
You said nonbelievers who do good, will be saved. But the "saved" that you are referring to in Matthew 25, isn't a "saved to everlasting life". It's "saved" in the context of christs millennial kingdom. It's not talking about the eternal life of believers. Saved in scripture can simply mean "delivered". It doesn't always refer to eternal life.

Where did I say that non-believers will be saved?

Here is where you said it:

We also know that, according to Matthew, there will be those that are judged based on what they have done and how they have treated the "brothers and sisters" of Christ.
Those who did good without even knowing they did, will be saved and those that did bad, even not knowing to whom they did it ( though they knew they were NOT doing good), will perish.

"Those who did good without even knowing they did, will be saved..."

I didn't say that Rick, Matthew writes that Jesus said that.

Storyteller wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:
Like I said before, belief in Christ does NOT save us from death since we all die.
Belief in Christ saves us from Judgment.
Those that do not believe will be resurrected to judgment and those that have done evil will be sent to "hell".
I mean, how else do you read matthew 25's parable of the sheep and goats?
It is clear that those that did good, not knowing they did good to the brothers and sisters of Christ, have been given the kingdom of God:

Assuming then that those who have done evil go to hell, where do those that have done good go, if they don`t believe in Christ?

Unless I`m wrong, what you have posted there suggests you think they will inherit the Kingdom of God.

I don't suggest anything, Matthew writes that Jesus said this.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Guys, it's fine that you don't agree with my view.
Just saying it isn't scriptural is incorrect because it is.

One thing I have learned is that there are many views about many things in the bible that SEEM to contradict ( they don't) and they are all scriptural.

Thing is though, if someone is deterred from Christ through man it`s a different thing to not believing in Christ.

I think I kinda get what you`re saying but how do you define good? Compared to who? God? Then we all fail miserably. And what happens after judgement? Where do these "good" people go? If, all we have to do is be good, then why believe in Christ in the first place? Surely the whole point of Christs sacrifice is because of the fact we cannot live up to the goodness of God, that we are all sinners. Sin is sin. We all sin, so we all need Christ. Christ is the ONLY way into the Kingdom of God.

P.S. Just read what you posted while I was composing this...
Are the people on His right not believers?

This is really confusing me...

Christ is the truth, the way. No one gets to the Father except through me. Yet, I get what you`re saying (I think) that some will be judged, and as we escape judgement through Christ, it has to be about non believers but it just doesn`t make sense to me.

(I am not arguing with you for the sake of it Paul, I genuinely want to understand what you`re saying, especially as I know very little of Scripture)

It's not scriptural if you are claiming Matthew 25 is referring to unbelievers being saved(eternal life) if they do good.

Taking the parable out of context and claiming that because Jesus said it, that makes it scriptural, is wrong.

Matthew 25 is talking about Christ's millennial kingdom. It's not talking about the eternal life of all believers and unbelievers.

Storyteller wrote:Thing is though, if someone is deterred from Christ through man it`s a different thing to not believing in Christ.

I think I kinda get what you`re saying but how do you define good? Compared to who? God? Then we all fail miserably. And what happens after judgement? Where do these "good" people go? If, all we have to do is be good, then why believe in Christ in the first place? Surely the whole point of Christs sacrifice is because of the fact we cannot live up to the goodness of God, that we are all sinners. Sin is sin. We all sin, so we all need Christ. Christ is the ONLY way into the Kingdom of God.

P.S. Just read what you posted while I was composing this...
Are the people on His right not believers?

This is really confusing me...

Christ is the truth, the way. No one gets to the Father except through me. Yet, I get what you`re saying (I think) that some will be judged, and as we escape judgement through Christ, it has to be about non believers but it just doesn`t make sense to me.

(I am not arguing with you for the sake of it Paul, I genuinely want to understand what you`re saying, especially as I know very little of Scripture)

See, I am not really saying anything other than pointing out what scripture says.
We all know that salvation is a gift based on belief in Christ.
That is explicitly stated.
BUT what is ALSO stated, explicitly, is that there will be a judgment and some people will be judged by their works.

I don't know what to make of this.

It doesnt specifically say non believers either though.

Storyteller wrote:I don't know what to make of this.

It doesnt specifically say non believers either though.

We had this discussion in my last year to theological studies and it got a bit heated to be honest.
The reality is that if you reads the various passages throughout the bible ( OT and NT) you MAY get a bit confused because while on one hand it says all you need is belief in Christ and you will be saved ( given eternal life), on the other hand it also explicitly states that there is a judgment of the righteous and wicked AND also states that only those in the Book of life will be saved.

One of the people there brought up the much brought up hypothetical of the very good and righteous non-believer and how unjust it would be to condemn them simply because they did not believe in Christ ( it was based on this person choosing to not believe in Christ because he/she didn't feel the argument for him was strong enough).
Ghandi was an example given in class.
While the bible in the NT is clear that ONLY those that believe in Christ are saved and will have eternal life, it also states that there will be a judgment for all ( except the believers?) and that the righteous will not be condemned.
It states that the wicked will perish BUT not that the non-believer will perish ( though it can be argued that it is implied).

Look at revelation, it states:

Revelation 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Note that it says that people are judged by what was written, according to what they had done.
Those not found in the book of life were thrown into the lake of fire.

Some have read this as:
Some non-believers are not even in the book of life because they choose to reject God and His will and followed their own will - God gave them up into their own will.
Some non-believers have done good and not rejected God per say, though they did not believe in Christ.
These will be judged according to their works.

To be honest, this is one of the only ways we can reconcile the explicit statements that:
Believers will not be judged but are saved and have eternal life because they have put their faith in Christ and not their works.
Some people are judged based on their works.

Tell me Paul,

In your theology class, when the discussion got heated, I bet you were glad you had martial arts training.

Kick some heretic butt!

RickD wrote:Tell me Paul,

In your theology class, when the discussion got heated, I bet you were glad you had martial arts training.

Kick some heretic butt!

There were times that it almost got to that !
LMAO !
Not with me though since I tend to be very much "live and let live" but some people are very ground in their preconceived views and in classes where ALL the various views are studied, things can get interesting.
You should've seen the creation debates and the "once saved, always saved" discussions.

Over the last year I have tried to look at passages with as little ( we can never totally eliminate them) preconceived views as I can.
I have allowed the bible texts to say what they say and tried to read it from the view of the original intended audience.

I just finished Dr. heiser's " The unseen realm" and so much that was "what?" has been made clear for me ( and validated a few things that were addressed in my studies as well).

As someone that hopes that all will be saved ( though I know that is not the case) I always have to be careful NOT to read what I would LIKE the scripture to say, into what it actually says.
BUT in this case, since the views are explicit, what we have left to do is trying not so much to interpret but to reconcile.

I am glad I havent read a lot of Scripture, I really want to now. My faith in Christ is absolute but I have always wondered about "good" people, like Gandhi.
Everything I felt about God, before I knew Christ, told me they would be saved. That God is just, and fair.
Maybe not being condemned is different from being saved? But then how do they inherit the kingdom of God?

Storyteller wrote:I am glad I havent read a lot of Scripture, I really want to now. My faith in Christ is absolute but I have always wondered about "good" people, like Gandhi.
Everything I felt about God, before I knew Christ, told me they would be saved. That God is just, and fair.
Maybe not being condemned is different from being saved? But then how do they inherit the kingdom of God?

Unlike most of my son's teachers, God doesn't grade the final exam on a curve.

God is life. And He can give eternal life to whomever He chooses. Nobody deserves eternal life for being good. Besides, when we judge Gandhi against God's goodness, Gandhi fails miserably. Just like the rest of us.

PaulSacramento wrote:As someone that hopes that all will be saved ( though I know that is not the case) I always have to be careful NOT to read what I would LIKE the scripture to say, into what it actually says.
BUT in this case, since the views are explicit, what we have left to do is trying not so much to interpret but to reconcile.

I used to think God won't rest untill all off mankind return to Him.
He created all.
He is the beginning and the end.
The alpha and the omega.
If all He created doesnt return, how can there be an end? Or a beginning?
There is both. We are living proof.

(told you it was crazy)

RickD wrote:

Storyteller wrote:I am glad I havent read a lot of Scripture, I really want to now. My faith in Christ is absolute but I have always wondered about "good" people, like Gandhi.
Everything I felt about God, before I knew Christ, told me they would be saved. That God is just, and fair.
Maybe not being condemned is different from being saved? But then how do they inherit the kingdom of God?

Unlike most of my son's teachers, God doesn't grade the final exam on a curve.

God is life. And He can give eternal life to whomever He chooses. Nobody deserves eternal life for being good. Besides, when we judge Gandhi against God's goodness, Gandhi fails miserably. Just like the rest of us.

Absolutely.

But there is a part of that that really sucks. I think most people agree Gandhi was a good guy.

Gandhi was a sinner. Just like the rest of us.