Evidence for God from Science

Kenny wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

Kenny wrote: I admit I don’t have an answer, all I have are guesses. If we define the Universe as all that exist, I would assume the Universe has always existed. Thus far nothing else makes sense to me.

Ken

Why?
Why would you assume that?

Because the idea that something could come from nothing does not make sense to me. We know something exists, so logic and reason tells me something had to have always existed. Weather this something that has always existed is the dark matter and dark matter that science knows nothing about, or the normal matter and energy we do know about; it just makes sense to me that something has always existed

Ken

So Ken, is it just possible that God could be that something?

(When you say God I will assume you are referring to the God as described in the Bible)
One of the many the reasons God doesn’t make sense to me is because if God sees mankind as the most important thing in the Universe; (created in his own image) I have to ask why is the rest of the entire universe hostile to mankind? Why would he create such a vast universe then make it useless to mankind? He spend 5 days creating this tiny planet, and less than one day creating everything else! Yet when you compare the entire Universe; stars, planets, galaxies, etc. to this tiny speck of a planet, it would make more sense if he had spent more time creating everything else and a microsecond creating planet earth.

It seems to me if something that saw mankind as the most important thing in the Universe was responsible for it all, things would be much different.

Ken

Not necessarily the God of the Bible, just the idea of God.
How would it be different?
And who says we're the most important thing in the universe?

Kenny wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Storyteller wrote: Why?
Why would you assume that?

Because the idea that something could come from nothing does not make sense to me. We know something exists, so logic and reason tells me something had to have always existed. Weather this something that has always existed is the dark matter and dark matter that science knows nothing about, or the normal matter and energy we do know about; it just makes sense to me that something has always existed

Ken

So Ken, is it just possible that God could be that something?

(When you say God I will assume you are referring to the God as described in the Bible)
One of the many the reasons God doesn’t make sense to me is because if God sees mankind as the most important thing in the Universe; (created in his own image) I have to ask why is the rest of the entire universe hostile to mankind? Why would he create such a vast universe then make it useless to mankind? He spend 5 days creating this tiny planet, and less than one day creating everything else! Yet when you compare the entire Universe; stars, planets, galaxies, etc. to this tiny speck of a planet, it would make more sense if he had spent more time creating everything else and a microsecond creating planet earth.

It seems to me if something that saw mankind as the most important thing in the Universe was responsible for it all, things would be much different.

Ken

Storyteller wrote:Not necessarily the God of the Bible, just the idea of God.

I guess it depends on how God is defined then. Some people worship inanimate objects; like the Sun; nature; etc.

Storyteller wrote:How would it be different?
And who says we're the most important thing in the universe?

f man is the only being God opted to create in his own image, that would suggest to me that man is the most important thing in of his creation. If he created the Universe it seems to me he would have created it in a way that mankind could use it for his benefit as we do planet Earth and everything on it; otherwise it’s rather worthless. If we assume a different God other than what is in the Bible, then I this God would have to be described before I can give a suitable answer

Ken

Storyteller wrote:And who says we're the most important thing in the universe?

We are the most important thing in the universe because we are created in the image of God and he created us on the last day (before resting) meaning he wanted to get everything "done and polished before releasing the final product".
Not to mention that we are the only animals with reason, with the ability to think, with a soul different than other species which allows us to do things other can not. Or have you seen a dog having a philosophical discussion with another one?

IceMobster wrote:We are the most important thing in the universe because we are created in the image of God and he created us on the last day (before resting) meaning he wanted to get everything "done and polished before releasing the final product".

Not to mention that we are the only animals with reason, with the ability to think, with a soul different than other species which allows us to do things other can not. Or have you seen a dog having a philosophical discussion with another one?

We're the only intelligent life on this planet, but as incomprehensibly gigantic and unfathomably old as the Universe is, it's pretty likely that we're not the only intelligent life anywhere.

IceMobster wrote:

Storyteller wrote:And who says we're the most important thing in the universe?

We are the most important thing in the universe because we are created in the image of God and he created us on the last day (before resting) meaning he wanted to get everything "done and polished before releasing the final product".
Not to mention that we are the only animals with reason, with the ability to think, with a soul different than other species which allows us to do things other can not. Or have you seen a dog having a philosophical discussion with another one?

So if intelligent life were discovered on another planet, would you assume we are superior to them, because we have souls and are created in the image of God and they are not?

Ken

IceMobster wrote:

Storyteller wrote:And who says we're the most important thing in the universe?

We are the most important thing in the universe because we are created in the image of God and he created us on the last day (before resting) meaning he wanted to get everything "done and polished before releasing the final product".
Not to mention that we are the only animals with reason, with the ability to think, with a soul different than other species which allows us to do things other can not. Or have you seen a dog having a philosophical discussion with another one?

We are not special because we are created in God's image. We are important because God chose us to be, there is a difference. Our speciality doesn't lie in who we are and how we're created but in the selection of God. Don't you remember:

Matthew 3:9
And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Storyteller wrote:Question for you BGood...

The ant, I see both those being true. A collection of atoms acting from stimuli and an ant making a sacrifice for the greater good.

The very fact that there are those options, that we can think, feel and reason. Does that not at least suggest the possibilty of God?

Yes it does.

But I will reiterate there are other equally valid ways of perceiving the world that makes that possibility obsolete for that individual.

Consider human beings as poker players. All the players operate under a universal set of rules, however each player only understands a subset(some of them, not all). And in addition to that there are some rules specific to each player which can never be known to that player(They simply do not have the capacity to see clearly in that respect).

Kenny wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Philip wrote:
What assumptions am I making, Ken?

*That there was a time in history the Universe did not exist.So it has always existed? (Ken) I would think so

*That the only way the Universe could exist is if it either were created, or popped into existence by itselfHow else could it have happened?
(Ken) It could have always existed

*That the Universe runs with precision, function, and consistency never random, or ever changing, in any of its systems.I`ll give you that one

Judging from your responses, those appear to be a few of the presuppositions you seem to make that I do not.

Ken

Ken? What do you believe?

I admit I don’t have an answer, all I have are guesses. If we define the Universe as all that exist, I would assume the Universe has always existed. Thus far nothing else makes sense to me.

Ken

PaulSacramento wrote:Actually Ken, we do know that the universe, as we know it, had a beginning so it has NOT always existed.

I agree with the first half; that the Universe AS WE KNOW IT had a beginning (Big Bang). This implies it may have existed differently before then they just don’t know. Science does not claim a time in history when absolutely nothing existed. Now if the Universe is defined as “all that exists” that means whatever it was that existed prior to the Universe existing AS WE KNOW IT was still the Universe. But of course if those silly scientists don’t know what they’re talking about when they refuse to consider God a factor in all of this, why should they be taken seriously with anything else they say?

PaulSacramento wrote:We also know that nothing in this universe that we know if, that comes into being does so WITHOUT an outside force causing it to be so.
These are things that science knows as well as it knows that Gravity, also called gravitation, is a force that exists among all material objects in the universe. For any two objects or particles having nonzero mass , the force of gravity tends to attract them toward each other. Gravity operates on objects of all sizes, from subatomic particles to clusters of galaxies. It also operates over all distances, no matter how small or great.

Does this also apply to Dark energy, and Dark matter which makes up 96% of the Universe? Or does this only apply to the 4% of the Universe that scientists know of.
https://westernparadigm.wordpress.com/2 ... -universe/


Ken[/quote]

Science of the gaps, really?
It seems that my faith in science is greater than yours my friend.
Yes, we only understand a very small percentage of the universe, YET what we do understand is manifest consistently in almost every new discovery we have.
We do NOT know what dark energy is, nor dark matter, but we do know what they aren't and we know that based on the consistency that we find in the universe.
I tend to not focus on things that we have more hypothesis than anything else.

The point being is that, based on what we do know, we have enough evidence to conclude that the universe had a beginning and that all things that come into being have a cause and UNTIL that's proven NOT to be the case then speculating the opposite based on nothing but fanciful wishes is not science at all.

neo-x wrote:

IceMobster wrote:

Storyteller wrote:And who says we're the most important thing in the universe?

We are the most important thing in the universe because we are created in the image of God and he created us on the last day (before resting) meaning he wanted to get everything "done and polished before releasing the final product".
Not to mention that we are the only animals with reason, with the ability to think, with a soul different than other species which allows us to do things other can not. Or have you seen a dog having a philosophical discussion with another one?

We are not special because we are created in God's image. We are important because God chose us to be, there is a difference. Our speciality doesn't lie in who we are and how we're created but in the selection of God. Don't you remember:

<a target="_blank" data-purpose="bible-reference" data-version="nasb95" data-reference="Matt 3.9" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Matt%203.9" class="rtBibleRef">Matthew 3:9</a>
And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

God chose for all other animals to be, there is no difference concerning that point. However, you don't see animals writing books or having a philosophical discussion.
Oh our specialty does lie in who we are. By choosing certain actions we choose to be further away or closer to God. Other animals do not have such a thing. They will follow instinct, whereas a human can be led by instinct, emotion, reason,...

Kenny wrote:

IceMobster wrote:

Storyteller wrote:And who says we're the most important thing in the universe?

We are the most important thing in the universe because we are created in the image of God and he created us on the last day (before resting) meaning he wanted to get everything "done and polished before releasing the final product".
Not to mention that we are the only animals with reason, with the ability to think, with a soul different than other species which allows us to do things other can not. Or have you seen a dog having a philosophical discussion with another one?

So if intelligent life were discovered on another planet, would you assume we are superior to them, because we have souls and are created in the image of God and they are not?

Ken

Such thing was not discovered yet but if it did, why do you presume they would not be created in the image of God? I wouldn't feel superior because you did not state what kind of soul (according to Aristotle) they'd have. Notice how superior doesn't mean (at least not in this case, imo) that egoistical superiority where I am bigger, better, greater, smarter, whatever than another animal and can do whatever I wish with it...

Kenny wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

Kenny wrote: *That there was a time in history the Universe did not exist.So it has always existed? (Ken) I would think so

*That the only way the Universe could exist is if it either were created, or popped into existence by itselfHow else could it have happened?
(Ken) It could have always existed

*That the Universe runs with precision, function, and consistency never random, or ever changing, in any of its systems.I`ll give you that one

Judging from your responses, those appear to be a few of the presuppositions you seem to make that I do not.

Ken

Ken? What do you believe?

I admit I don’t have an answer, all I have are guesses. If we define the Universe as all that exist, I would assume the Universe has always existed. Thus far nothing else makes sense to me.

Ken

PaulSacramento wrote:Actually Ken, we do know that the universe, as we know it, had a beginning so it has NOT always existed.

I agree with the first half; that the Universe AS WE KNOW IT had a beginning (Big Bang). This implies it may have existed differently before then they just don’t know. Science does not claim a time in history when absolutely nothing existed. Now if the Universe is defined as “all that exists” that means whatever it was that existed prior to the Universe existing AS WE KNOW IT was still the Universe. But of course if those silly scientists don’t know what they’re talking about when they refuse to consider God a factor in all of this, why should they be taken seriously with anything else they say?

PaulSacramento wrote:We also know that nothing in this universe that we know if, that comes into being does so WITHOUT an outside force causing it to be so.
These are things that science knows as well as it knows that Gravity, also called gravitation, is a force that exists among all material objects in the universe. For any two objects or particles having nonzero mass , the force of gravity tends to attract them toward each other. Gravity operates on objects of all sizes, from subatomic particles to clusters of galaxies. It also operates over all distances, no matter how small or great.

Does this also apply to Dark energy, and Dark matter which makes up 96% of the Universe? Or does this only apply to the 4% of the Universe that scientists know of.
https://westernparadigm.wordpress.com/2 ... -universe/


Ken[/quote]

PaulSacramento wrote:Science of the gaps, really?

Naww Braughh; those “of the gaps” accusations are reserved for those who claim to know the answers. I’ve made it clear from the start that I don’t know, and science is clear it doesn’t know either; all I am doing is guessing.

PaulSacramento wrote:It seems that my faith in science is greater than yours my friend.

Science doesn’t have the answers to the Universe, apparently you do. I think it’s safe to assume your faith goes a little beyond science; mine does not.

PaulSacramento wrote:Yes, we only understand a very small percentage of the universe, YET what we do understand is manifest consistently in almost every new discovery we have.

I disagree! Science does not claim Dark energy and matter manifest consistently with regular matter and energy. Unless of course this is another one of those things your faith allows you to know that goes beyond the reach of science...

PaulSacramento wrote:We do NOT know what dark energy is, nor dark matter, but we do know what they aren't and we know that based on the consistency that we find in the universe.

What we don’t know about something is not enough to go making claims about it.

PaulSacramento wrote:I tend to not focus on things that we have more hypothesis than anything else.

Science doesn’t have a hypothesis about what was before the singularity that expanded into the Big Bang; but you do….right?

PaulSacramento wrote:The point being is that, based on what we do know, we have enough evidence to conclude that the universe had a beginning

What do you mean by that? Are you saying Science claims a point in history when nothing existed?


Ken

IceMobster wrote:Such thing was not discovered yet but if it did, why do you presume they would not be created in the image of God?

Assuming they do not look like us, it is safe to assume they were not made in the image of God; like us.

IceMobster wrote:I wouldn't feel superior because you did not state what kind of soul (according to Aristotle) they'd have.

Would you assume they had a soul

IceMobster wrote:Notice how superior doesn't mean (at least not in this case, imo) that egoistical superiority where I am bigger, better, greater, smarter, whatever than another animal and can do whatever I wish with it...

The type of superior I am referring to is the knowledge that God favors us over them, thus he created us in his image, but not them.

Ken

Kenny wrote:Assuming they do not look like us, it is safe to assume they were not made in the image of God; like us.

Phrase "created in God's image" does not cover physical characteristics.

Kenny wrote:Would you assume they had a soul

I would, because otherwise, they wouldn't be able to contact/come to us. You don't see cats building spaceships, do you?

Kenny wrote:The type of superior I am referring to is the knowledge that God favors us over them, thus he created us in his image, but not them.

Ken

How do you know He did not create them in His image?
Even if he didn't, I wouldn't feel or say for myself I am superior just because I was/am created in God's image.

We are in dangerous/weird waters here, being all hypothetical and s#&%... Too many presumes, don't you think?

Kenny wrote:Assuming they do not look like us, it is safe to assume they were not made in the image of God; like us.

IceMobster wrote:Phrase "created in God's image" does not cover physical characteristics.

If "created in God's image" is not in reference to physical characteristics, what is it in reference to then?

Kenny wrote:Would you assume they had a soul

IceMobster wrote:I would, because otherwise, they wouldn't be able to contact/come to us. You don't see cats building spaceships, do you?

Do you equate having a soul with intelligence?d That if another creature were as intelligence as humans; they would have souls as well?

Kenny wrote:The type of superior I am referring to is the knowledge that God favors us over them, thus he created us in his image, but not them.

Ken

IceMobster wrote:How do you know He did not create them in His image?
Even if he didn't, I wouldn't feel or say for myself I am superior just because I was/am created in God's image.

Fair enough; thanks for answering my question.

IceMobster wrote:We are in dangerous/weird waters here, being all hypothetical and s#&%... Too many presumes, don't you think?

[/quote]
No; you should never be afraid to ask questions

Ken

Kenny wrote: If "created in God's image" is not in reference to physical characteristics, what is it in reference to then?

It references likeness between God and man concerning the non-physical characteristics (being rational, love, being merciful, being compassionate, being self-aware,...).

Kenny wrote: Do you equate having a soul with intelligence?d That if another creature were as intelligence as humans; they would have souls as well?

Most definitely. However, intelligence wouldn't be enough. Cleverness/intellect would also be required as to connect all the bits(both in theory and in practice) and create the spaceship.
I don't equate soul of a vegetation to having intelligence, but, assuming someone is clever enough to build a spaceship, they'd need to have a soul.

Kenny wrote: No; you should never be afraid to ask questions

Ken

This is not about the questions. This is more or less a hypothetical assuming... Anyways, I am not afraid of doing so.

IceMobster wrote:

neo-x wrote:

IceMobster wrote:

Storyteller wrote:And who says we're the most important thing in the universe?

We are the most important thing in the universe because we are created in the image of God and he created us on the last day (before resting) meaning he wanted to get everything "done and polished before releasing the final product".
Not to mention that we are the only animals with reason, with the ability to think, with a soul different than other species which allows us to do things other can not. Or have you seen a dog having a philosophical discussion with another one?

We are not special because we are created in God's image. We are important because God chose us to be, there is a difference. Our speciality doesn't lie in who we are and how we're created but in the selection of God. Don't you remember:

<a target="_blank" data-purpose="bible-reference" data-version="nasb95" data-reference="Matt 3.9" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Matt%203.9" class="rtBibleRef">Matthew 3:9</a>
And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

God chose for all other animals to be, there is no difference concerning that point. However, you don't see animals writing books or having a philosophical discussion.
Oh our specialty does lie in who we are. By choosing certain actions we choose to be further away or closer to God. Other animals do not have such a thing. They will follow instinct, whereas a human can be led by instinct, emotion, reason,...

I was once playing guitar and my sister who was doing her M. Phil degree was studying. The door bell rang. She said to my go and see who is there. I told her, you go. She said, well I'm doing study, some really important and intelligent stuff. And I said why do you think your study has more to do with intelligence than playing music?

So we all have our specialities and our self-congratulatory opinions of what we do or have inherent as. But I always wonder why do cockroaches can survive a nuclear blast but we humans can't. God sure gave the cockroach a much better chance of survival and living than his best creation - man?

Humans follow lots of instinct as well. Try poking yourself in the eye with a fork, your eyelid with closedown out of instinct. Or lose balance and at once your hand will dart out to grab something to regain that balance.

Sure the cats don't have philosophical discussions about why numbers are real things or not, but they do speak in their tongue a lot and who knows what's going on there?

Sure cats haven't invented a rocket but they do invent ways to open doors creatively. Elephants mourn their dead and chimps do rain dances. some parrots have emotional range compared to infant humans. Dogs can break smell into chemical parts to identify trails. You try doing that? I bet you can't beat the dog.

As far as creation is concerned all life has value and beauty in itself and is God's handiwork. Do you know that there is a speical bacteria which takes care of the poop done on this planet by everyone. Without that bacteria life would be impossible.

We are animals just look at what we do with every other living thing, including other humans. It only is because of God's choice that we are special. It has nothing to do with our ability to discuss Descartes or Kant.