Evidence for God from Science

If they haven't heard of Christ then God knows what is in their heart and whether they would reject Christ.
I believe hell is only for those who reject Christ.

If they haven't heard of Christ then God knows what is in their heart and whether they would reject Christ.
I believe hell is only for those who reject Christ.

imo, absolute perfection. God knows everyone's and we don't, but we can know in our own hearts and if given that final opportunity, we will respond with the right answer and good things will happen.

ICE: God is not limited by geography, but limits certain people access to the Scripture. How can you claim he is fair, then?

Because He has ALREADY given them enough to desire to know MORE about Him, or to reject Him, as they HAVE ALREADY been made aware of His existence and basic attributes:

Limiting people's access to Scripture is different matter than limiting their access to GOD, its Author. You are using a man's thinking. The Apostle Paul, in Romans, teaches that ALL people know of God's existence and provision - at the very least, they know this. Paul said, "What may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." And the reason people SEEM to not know of God's existence - even if they themselves are convinced this is unknowable, Paul states that this is because MEN "suppress the truth by their wickedness."

And so, as all men know of God, because He has "made it plain to them," they could either embrace and express their desire to obey and know Him or not - He is as close as their very own breath. But Paul further says that "although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him," and so "their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened." The result of this rejection of the real God was the start of religion: "Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles." And instead of embracing the truth of the REAL God Who has revealed Himself in key ways, Paul explains, instead, "They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator." And Paul adds that, "Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done."

Ice: You can't say He does not(limit the access). Imagine a kid in Asia working in slave labor. When will (s)he hear about Scripture, Christ or Christianity? Never. Why would (s)he desire to know God? Only thing (s)he knows is working 12+ hours a day... Following your logic, (s)he is going to hell for rejecting Christ...

No, such a person, pre-Christ and now, would not be saved if they have already or ever PERMANENTLY reject what about God Scripture says ALL people have ALREADY been made aware of. The understanding about Jesus, His Resurrection, and the Gospel are FURTHER and more complete revelations. But a person is determined to already reject what of God has has already shown them about Who He is, that is enough to doom them. Such people would only reject the Gospel as well - so it is of no use to such people - which is why it is denied many. And because Jesus is also God, in His Trinity. Scripture says you cannot honor the Father without honoring the Son. Of course, pre-Christ, Abraham still had faith in the very same God, of Whom Jesus is part. But God had not yet revealed that further revelation of Himself nor yet made belief in Christ's then-future Resurrection a requirement.

Point is, people have (through history) and can reject God without knowing of Jesus and the Gospel. And this is because God knows who the Gospel would profit, and also all those whom would only reject that as well - whether they live in some remote place or not. God sends the Gospel to those He knows it will profit, even to many that it will not profit - but not to everyone does He send it. Also, ANYONE can call upon God as He has already shown them - IF they will do so, He will do and provide all they need to help them to belief and faith, which would include and require knowledge of the Gospel and Jesus. This might entail missionaries, the internet, some obscure way, visions, dreams - God is not limited by any jungle or remote place. And neither is a man's voice to call upon Him.

Remember, God knows ALL future decisions and motivations of a man's heart and mind - God cannot be surprised. Its like wanting to help two beggars, and you have a sack of gold coins to give away. But your foreknowledge of all things knows exactly that Man A will do exceptional and wonderful things for himself and others with that sack of gold coin. He knows Man B will squander it all on prostitutes and drugs, and in a year that man will be worse off than before receiving the gold coins. Why would any wise person, knowing perfectly well what Man B would do with those coins, give him gold coins to waste? No, you would save that one bag of coins to give it to another with the sensibilities of Man A. And that explains people who NEVER are given the Gospel. But WE cannot know a person's heart and mind like this - we can't see what they know or have suppressed or rejected. It may well be that THEY don't realize they've done this either. But God can and does.

Ice: How can one call upon God if one doesn't know Him?

Again, everyone knows enough to call upon God, but many suppress even that knowledge, insistent that they either don't know, know differently, or can't know. Scripture says differently. And they all have a voice - even if not in speech, but in will of mind. If you want to reach to and call on God, or if He KNOWS you would be willing to positively respond to what He provides - He will give you all needed to be reached by the Gospel message. He created a universe, it's not like He (or you) need a good internet connection and email or smartphone to do so.

Philip wrote: Remember, God knows ALL future decisions and motivations of a man's heart and mind - God cannot be surprised. Its like wanting to help two beggars, and you have a sack of gold coins to give away. But your foreknowledge of all things knows exactly that Man A will do exceptional and wonderful things for himself and others with that sack of gold coin. He knows Man B will squander it all on prostitutes and drugs, and in a year that man will be worse off than before receiving the gold coins. Why would any wise person, knowing perfectly well what Man B would do with those coins, give him gold coins to waste? No, you would save that one bag of coins to give it to another with the sensibilities of Man A. And that explains people who NEVER are given the Gospel. But WE cannot know a person's heart and mind like this - we can't see what they know or have suppressed or rejected. It may well be that THEY don't realize they've done this either. But God can and does.

God knows all of the future decisions? What is the point in living, then? We are determined to do this or that. To end in hell, or not.
If I, before ending this post of mine cut my throat, God would know that would happen?

God knows all of the future decisions? ... correct

What is the point in living, then? ... see #1 and remember you don't. future decisions = living

We are determined to do this or that. ... my friend there are no determinations other than the ones we make willfully without knowing the future.

To end in hell, or not. ... correct, again your determination

if I, before ending this post of mine cut my throat, God would know that would happen? ... he's known for some time now. imo, the answer to the reason why you've done this, and your present state of grace will determine your eventual eternity. God does all He can for us every day, what you do with it, that precious gift, determines your outcome.

Nah, makes no sense. He knows all of the future decisions, yet I didn't cut my throat. "He's known for some time now." How do you know He did?
You didn't understand me. I am stating the problem of determinism not personal or God's determinations.
Eh, nvm...

I don't know, Ice. I, for one, am not of the view that God judges us for what we would have done. I tend to think that justice is only related to what we have actually done. *shrug*

Nah, makes no sense. He knows all of the future decisions, yet I didn't cut my throat. "He's known for some time now." How do you know He did?
You didn't understand me. I am stating the problem of determinism not personal or God's determinations.
Eh, nvm...

you're right, i only read what i c&p and i really wasn't commenting on determinism... or at least not your which ever you have accepted version. i can tell you this, and then leave you to far better apologists here at G&S, ...

God is all knowledge. He knows everything and everyone whom and by which has been created by Him. from the number of hairs on your head to your, never even been spoken, deepest secret ... everything. really, you thought you tricked him by not cutting your throat ? is that what you mean ? if so, he knew that before you did ...

how do you know he did ?
he's known for some time ? ... well i can't pin it down exactly but imo when he created our spirit and soul, you either occupy or own, he knew all about you and your current and future existence then ... all of us ... all at once maybe before the timely creation of our known and unknown universe... but you need faith and a belief in that omniscient God for any of it to work. How do i know ... that omniscient God, He hung on a cross telling me... and i believe Him

i have no idea Eh, nvm is sorry

ICE: God knows all of the future decisions? What is the point in living, then? We are determined to do this or that. To end in hell, or not. If I, before ending this post of mine cut my throat, God would know that would happen?

Ice, WHATEVER you might ever do, whether in the near or the distant future, God knows precisely every detail of all of it. In fact, He has ALWAYS known it - and there was never a moment of eternity past that He hasn't known every detail of it. As well, there is not one single event or action in all of time, place or dimension that God hasn't ALWAYS known every detail of it. He knows your eternal fate - which you will freely choose, and there was never a moment in which He hasn't known it. But God patiently lets what He has always known play out in real time and history. And history will play out and end precisely as God so desires, and yet, you are still totally free in whatever actions or choices you decide to take, given the options you're provided. Also, God uses the free will choices of men to achieve His purposes - despite whether those choices were meant for good or evil.

melanie wrote:I'm not convinced at all that the doctrine of hell as understood by mainstream Christianity is either correct or biblically sound.

It doesn't seem you touched upon the doctrine of hell, what it is??

melanie wrote:I have in the past jumped through hoops trying to reconcile the doctrine of an all encompassing, torturous, never ending hell. I myself have gone down the road of reasoning such as 'people choose this outcome not God'. But the truth is many people don't. There have been countless of people who have never been given the opportunity to make such a choice.
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In the past I treaded very carefully in my wordings for fear of being labelled a universalist. These days I am less concerned with what others may think, or whatever label they may slap on me. For the record I'm not a universalist but I also do not believe that the vast majority of people end up in a fiery pit of endless torture and torment for eternity. When you start to get your mind around the concept of eternity, torture and torment without end, ever....questions arise as to the legitimacy of such a claim.

You say you're not universalist, but then you talk of non-believing people end up in what you describe hell - "a fiery pit of endless torture and torment for eternity..."

It doesn't really matter if you believe some will still go there. Universalism isn't the concern. Rather being saved without Christ is a concern. Because that goes against anything Christ Himself spoke when He told people that He was the Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father except through Him. I'm not sure whether you would truly contradict that and other Scripture with similar sentiments, so I'm scratching my head a little.

Your doctrine of hell, what I can see of it with some buzz words used, seems to be a naive theological conception that I often see your Bible bashing hell-alarming Christians touting. I'm sure I'd disagree with you and them as to the nature of Hell -- what Hell really is -- but you don't really spend much time describing such so I'm not sure.
I'll say more about my theology of Hell below.

Let me say my Grandfather who I have fond memories of growing up, died two days ago.
Sadly, his heart wa very closed to God. And from my own observation seems to become more entangled and embittered towards God. I'm 99% sure, that Satan won his soul, and now it saddens me very much to say that my Grandpop is/will be in that place we call Hell, cast out from God.
It is most definitely not loving nor more compassion to diminish Hell's existence if it is a real place, or by the same token God's grace that comes via faith in Christ.

It is easy to say for a self-righteous preacher that sinners go to Hell, but when you have a personal loved someone you know rejected God, then you kind of put your money where your mouth is. You and others make out people argue for Hell because they want to hurt or get one up on non-Christians, but that's not true at all.

Hell is a necessary place required for those who will not accept God in His own Kingdom.
It is a place for people who do not know, cannot or will not call Christ Lord for Christ is the only way.
It is a place for those who fear God so much that they run from Christ. It is reserved for those who choose to be on their own rather than united in Christ. It is also a place that God sustains and holds together and yet withdraws His goodness and light -- His thirst-quenching waters -- from as much as is possible.

Here is a different side of Hell and God's relationship to it that we don't often hear.
God being God, all those souls there He will remember for eternity.
On some level God will be there beside them for all eternity, although they will not see -- because God being God is the source of existence itself and required for anything to be sustained in existence.
On some level God will experience everything someone in Hell experiences for eternity -- because God being God knows all, both rational and experiential forms of knowing.
So on some level God while in His kingdom would too suffer for eternity alongside a person in Hell feeling their confusion, sadness, tortures and the like of their experience in Hell -- all those who could not be united to Christ and chose to stand alone when faced with His righteous and fair judgement God...

By merely sustaining them into existence, and in virtue of God's all-loving and all-knowing nature, God is showing His love because everything they feel and see although they're in Hell, God too would feel and know.

And yet, knowing many would not have a heart for Him, would not love Him, and choose to go the other way -- God still creates these eternal creatures who are completely free to love or reject Him.

You speak of a theology of hell Melanie, and yet you didn't offer up one and only seem to widen the gate.
I understand that for you this comes from a place of love and compassion, but the end result isn't at all loving and compassionate if you're wrong. I'd rather you reform your theology of Hell, rather than theology of Christ and salvation (like you appear to have more focussed on).

Above I give a side of hell not often heard. One which must be true based upon the divine attributes assigned to God.
Hell, while horrible and torturous to those who know they'll never see or be in the source of all goodness and light again, for all eternity being locked into their world which they're unable to change for the rest of eternity, Hell is also a necessary place and actually eternally loving for God to sustain and keep in place.

One person there experiences it for themselves, but God in virtue of His nature will also endure it alongside them and the millions and billions of other souls all at once who are trapped their by their own hearts.

Now God would not do that to Himself, unless such a place were absolutely necessary.
And God would not place Himself under such a yoke unless His love were indeed infinite.
Yet, God still created, all the while knowing this.

So then, again I say, my grandfather who died a couple days ago I see will be in hell.
This is no theological game of who is right and wrong. It's no game. It's damn serious!

He'll never know God's goodness. Never see God's love.
While very loving to myself in life, although some think him quite cruel I mainly have fond memories.
Nonetheless he rejected God, and made a clear decision to not accept or embrace Christ.
Grandpop will stand alone before God's judgement seat.
He'll rightly fear God's awesomeness and his judgement.
Because the love which casts out such fear he did not accept and rejected.

melanie wrote:The doctrine of hell causes Christians a relentless amount of fear. I have seen It personally and on here. People who are so concerned about the eternity of their loved ones that they are pushed to extreme evangelising to them which often has the opposite effect. It causes them sleepless nights and so much anguish.
There is no fear in Christ, only peace.

It is out of love they fear and feel for their loved ones.
There are valid fears and invalid ones.
If Hell is real, then their fears are valid.
If God is real, then their fears are validated.

Diminishing it will not help anyone, or misleading people by deluding them into thinking it may not exist, or actually a lot more people will be there than just those who placed their faith in Christ -- I don't know what Bible you read, but such is nowhere to be found in Scripture and I'm thinking more Everywhere to be found in personal sentiment.

I say that, not because I'm harsh and mean. To say otherwise I think is harsh and mean when Christ being the way true.
I say what I do because I don't want more people to be lost like Grandpop was under some misguidance however compassionate and well-intentioned it might be.

You're right on one thing implied, people won't truly love God based upon fear.
Hell in such instance is really a non-issue. Someone who doesn't love God isn't going to and indeed can't love God just to escape Hell. Such isn't true love. And that is probably one of the strongest reasons I can see why God doesn't show Himself, but allows himself to be hidden from people. True love starts with their heart. Those who have a heart for God WILL discover a knowledge of God regardless of nature or nurture. Our Will will overcome both and I have faith in God to ensure it. A Muslim born under Shariah Law may dream dreams. In the Western world we may freely seek out such knowledge. To others, blessed are they who have evangelists reach them with the truth.

I do not believe anyone pushes another further away from Christ,
if a person moves further away due to our attempts to reach out to them, then it just shows the condition of their heart -- it's not a flaw in the person reaching out to another person in their love for them.

There are also different types of fears.
You say you've studies Scripture intensely to come to your beliefs.
Whoever says they don't fear God, doesn't know who God is. (Prov 1:7)
There are plenty of other verses on a righteous fear in relation to God also in Scripture.
But then, whoever truly loves God in their heart need not fear.

IceMobster wrote:Nah, makes no sense. He knows all of the future decisions, yet I didn't cut my throat. "He's known for some time now." How do you know He did?
You didn't understand me. I am stating the problem of determinism not personal or God's determinations.
Eh, nvm...

This tosses the wrench on the cogs of determinism...

Hosea 8:3,4, Israel has rejected the good; The enemy will pursue him. 4 They have set up kings, but not by Me; They have appointed princes, but I did not know it. With their silver and gold they have made idols for themselves, That they might be cut off. NASB

Did you read this - hear it? Who is speaking?

God is more than capable to work thru anything folks can do or say and still carrying out his will.

When a group of people or nations rejects the good, God let's them select their own leaders, why, so judgement will fall upon those that reject the good. Difficult to grasp but God moves thru the free moral agency of people with ease because he already foreknows the final outcome that his calling out to them will have before anyone was every born.

With equity the Lord judges all as Psalms 98:9 mentions. He sends his call, reveals himself to all people everywhere, in a wide variety of ways and means, even to the ones he foreknows will reject Him

Isaiah 65:2-3 NKJV I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts; a people who provoke Me to anger continually to My face... NKJV

Numbers 14:11 NKJV Then the LORD said to Moses: "How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them?

In this way, people condemn themselves, God's hands are clean of any wrong doing while at the same time, God's sovereign nature and all powerful just nature remains intact.

In all seriousness, the points of 'Christian' based determinism needs a reassessment.

And Next...

God's ways are not our ways and his ways are far above ours and for people to base a theory that God will not sentence folks to hell for eternity due to determinism because that would make God unfair, well, such theories need a reassessment too.
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IceMobster wrote:...God is not limited by geography, but limits certain people access to the Scripture. How can you claim he is fair, then?

You can't say He does not(limit the access). Imagine a kid in Asia working in slave labor. When will (s)he hear about Scripture, Christ or Christianity? Never. Why would (s)he desire to know God? Only thing (s)he knows is working 12+ hours a day... Following your logic, (s)he is going to hell for rejecting Christ...
How can one call upon God if one doesn't know Him?

Again you are committing an equivalency fallacy in this argument:

God reveals himself to all just by the mere fact of creation itself, however, folks chose not to recognize or instead choose to worship nature and things in nature as god. God reveals thru personal intervention and folks either pass it off as blind chance, luck of the draw, or nature and fail to find God. Fact is, God is speaking but folks have deaf ears and blind eyes to this.

To answer you, such folks reject God. Does God, being all who he is, really be unable to foreknow all who will reject his call (Word-Jesus) before any were ever born? Is he so incapable placing them in the scheme of time and geographic places best suited them so that later their progeny foreknown who will accept God's call (Word-Jesus) can receive?

What you are saying Ice that God is unable to do this and must conform to humancentric notions of what is fair and what is not or else one will not accept God. This is much like a spoiled child saying, I will not - till I get my way!

Do you see that?
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Hell is only meant for satan, the beast and false prophet. "We" are not meant to be there. Adam and Eve messed up because they fell for satans' deceitfulness. He planted doubt in their minds about God. He's been doing that in the human race ever since. And God Also provided redemption for all of us -- no one Has to end up in hell. Since God is all - knowing -- He Does know who will and who won't accept His gift / way for our salvation From having to end up in hell.
This life that we all live Here is only temporary. God tells us about the Next, everlasting life we Can have in heaven.

As 'Nessa" pointed out -- does anyone deserve eternal Life in Heaven? No. It's only because Of God's Grace that we Can have a way to be in heaven with Him. We Should be thankful for That.

crochet1949 wrote:Hell is only meant for satan, the beast and false prophet. "We" are not meant to be there. Adam and Eve messed up because they fell for satans' deceitfulness. He planted doubt in their minds about God. He's been doing that in the human race ever since. And God Also provided redemption for all of us -- no one Has to end up in hell. Since God is all - knowing -- He Does know who will and who won't accept His gift / way for our salvation From having to end up in hell.
This life that we all live Here is only temporary. God tells us about the Next, everlasting life we Can have in heaven.

As 'Nessa" pointed out -- does anyone deserve eternal Life in Heaven? No. It's only because Of God's Grace that we Can have a way to be in heaven with Him. We Should be thankful for That.

I guess so
We are all sinners by nature and the only reason we commit a finite number of sins is because our lives are finite, no other reason, so eternal hell is justified