Evidence for God from Science

Audie wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Audie wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

B. W. wrote:In response to the other thread how about this:

Does anything attract you to Atheism?
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Yep, for sure.
Moral ambiguity for one.
Being a well trained martial artist along with being a former high level military operative gives me a unique perspective on what I CAN do and what I OUGHT to do.
In short, IF I wanted to do what I wanted, very few people would be able to stop me, very few.
laws are a starting point not an end point and they exist to enforce a moral code.
No moral code and the only reason not to follow the laws is because you fear repercussions.
It is obvious how that point is moot for certain people.

There is also the appeal that I could, sexually, do whatever I wanted.

There is also the fact that, as an atheist, I wouldn't have to focus on anyone other than myself and I would NOT be a "slave" to any higher standard than the "acceptable one".

Now, that does NOT mean that as an atheist I WOULD do those things because, quite certainly, many atheists do NOT.

My point is that, as an atheist, there would be no reason NOT do other than, perhaps, fear of the law and repercussions from society ( which I could avoid very easily if I wanted to).

Perhaps if you'd grown up "godless" the way I did, you'd see how odd your perspective is.

Law and repercussions affect everyone. I, though, don't need carrot and stick to live up to my expectations for myself.

Irrelevant, since we are not talking about you and there is no objective or universal moral code.
You view is fine for you, but not relevant at all for me.
Sure the law affects everyone, just not to the same degree.
Besides, it is nothing but a fabrication of man trying to dominate man anyways.
I am not sheep and I don't follow others.
As one that believe sin nothing and is not subject to some irrelevant judeo-christian notion of "right and wrong", you view has no meaning for me.
Nor does anyone else's.
LIVE, DRINK and FIGHT for this is all we have and tomorrow we die !

Oh, pardon me Handsome, I should have just said "irrlevant" as your post is only about you.

EXACTLY !

I'm not an atheist because I find atheism attractive. I'm an atheist because I don't believe the people who claim that gods exist, and I haven't seen any other evidence. Atheism actually comes with a lot of downsides. Religion offers answers and responses to loss, death, tragedy, inequality, and injustice. Atheism takes all of that away and offers nothing in return. That doesn't matter because I'm not sitting here doing a cost-benefit analysis. From my point of view atheism is the only option because gods don't exist and religion is founded on an empty throne.

edwardmurphy wrote:I'm not an atheist because I find atheism attractive. I'm an atheist because I don't believe the people who claim that gods exist, and I haven't seen any other evidence. Atheism actually comes with a lot of downsides. Religion offers answers and responses to loss, death, tragedy, inequality, and injustice. Atheism takes all of that away and offers nothing in return. That doesn't matter because I'm not sitting here doing a cost-benefit analysis. From my point of view atheism is the only option because gods don't exist and religion is founded on an empty throne.

I liked this not because I agree with it but because its a great explanation.
What kind of evidence are you talking about here ed? There is some evidence, just maybe not convincing enough for you. So, if someone could provide evidence, you may then believe in God? Have you honestly, without prejudice considered the possibility of God?

Nothing about atheism attracts me. I think atheists are some of the most intellectually dishonest people there are.I mean they say we who believe in God have not provided enough evidence to convince them our God is real,yet they accept atheism with absolutely no evidence at all it is true and they even brag about them not needing evidence. It is a double standard that they overlook,they set the bar for evidence so high when it comes to God yet give atheism a pass when it comes to evidence. Even false religions have more evidence than atheism does.

Also from what I hear from atheist scientists who alot of atheists look up to? It requires alot more faith to believe the atheist scientist than to believe everything in the bible. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." is so much easier to believe than anything I've heard them come up with.Atheists willingly take the long way around to try to discover the truth,while acting like they don't.

abelcainsbrother wrote:Nothing about atheism attracts me. I think atheists are some of the most intellectually dishonest people there are.I mean they say we who believe in God have not provided enough evidence to convince them our God is real,yet they accept atheism with absolutely no evidence at all it is true and they even brag about them not needing evidence. It is a double standard that they overlook,they set the bar for evidence so high when it comes to God yet give atheism a pass when it comes to evidence. Even false religions have more evidence than atheism does.

Also from what I hear from atheist scientists who alot of atheists look up to? It requires alot more faith to believe the atheist scientist than to believe everything in the bible. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." is so much easier to believe than anything I've heard them come up with.Atheists willingly take the long way around to try to discover the truth,while acting like they don't.

As a caring Atheist, I am going to inform you that there is an argument against atheism that is irrefutable.
Atheism is the rejection of the man made claim that God exist.

You can reduce Atheism to dust, reduce it to absurdity by just supplying evidence that supports the claim that man makes about the existence of God.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:Nothing about atheism attracts me. I think atheists are some of the most intellectually dishonest people there are.I mean they say we who believe in God have not provided enough evidence to convince them our God is real,yet they accept atheism with absolutely no evidence at all it is true and they even brag about them not needing evidence. It is a double standard that they overlook,they set the bar for evidence so high when it comes to God yet give atheism a pass when it comes to evidence. Even false religions have more evidence than atheism does.

Also from what I hear from atheist scientists who alot of atheists look up to? It requires alot more faith to believe the atheist scientist than to believe everything in the bible. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." is so much easier to believe than anything I've heard them come up with.Atheists willingly take the long way around to try to discover the truth,while acting like they don't.

As a caring Atheist, I am going to inform you that there is an argument against atheism that is irrefutable.
Atheism is the rejection of the man made claim that God exist.

You can reduce Atheism to dust, reduce it to absurdity by just supplying evidence that supports the claim that man makes about the existence of God.

Ken

I'm guessing your comment is important Ken, the fact it is a man made claim that God exists. What else could it be? God doesn't need to claim He exists, does He? He knows He does.
'Just' supply evidence? How about the resurrection? The shroud? The fact so many people have experienced God? NDE's?
Know what I think? Really, really think? I can no more prove God right and atheism wrong than you can prove atheism right and God wrong. It comes down to what you believe. Free will. The very thing that proves God allows for doubt. That's why it takes faith.

abelcainsbrother wrote:Nothing about atheism attracts me. I think atheists are some of the most intellectually dishonest people there are.I mean they say we who believe in God have not provided enough evidence to convince them our God is real,yet they accept atheism with absolutely no evidence at all it is true and they even brag about them not needing evidence. It is a double standard that they overlook,they set the bar for evidence so high when it comes to God yet give atheism a pass when it comes to evidence. Even false religions have more evidence than atheism does.

Also from what I hear from atheist scientists who alot of atheists look up to? It requires alot more faith to believe the atheist scientist than to believe everything in the bible. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." is so much easier to believe than anything I've heard them come up with.Atheists willingly take the long way around to try to discover the truth,while acting like they don't.

To be a creationist (yec /gap) has stern requirements. One has to be one or all three of
ignorant, mentally disturbed, or intellectually dishonest.

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:Nothing about atheism attracts me. I think atheists are some of the most intellectually dishonest people there are.I mean they say we who believe in God have not provided enough evidence to convince them our God is real,yet they accept atheism with absolutely no evidence at all it is true and they even brag about them not needing evidence. It is a double standard that they overlook,they set the bar for evidence so high when it comes to God yet give atheism a pass when it comes to evidence. Even false religions have more evidence than atheism does.

Also from what I hear from atheist scientists who alot of atheists look up to? It requires alot more faith to believe the atheist scientist than to believe everything in the bible. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." is so much easier to believe than anything I've heard them come up with.Atheists willingly take the long way around to try to discover the truth,while acting like they don't.

As a caring Atheist, I am going to inform you that there is an argument against atheism that is irrefutable.
Atheism is the rejection of the man made claim that God exist.

You can reduce Atheism to dust, reduce it to absurdity by just supplying evidence that supports the claim that man makes about the existence of God.

Ken

Heck, why not wipe out evolution, too? All that is needed is one good solid contrary fact.

No disproof has ever been offered yet. Not one sad weary little fact.

Excuses, hoaxes, lies, strawmen, misrepresentation, distortions, those and more are trotted out
in weary procession, but never a fact is to be seen.

Or try this: tell the creationists to put up or shut up. No falsehoods, just s good fact or two.
If they agree, that will shut them up permanently.

Audie wrote:

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:Nothing about atheism attracts me. I think atheists are some of the most intellectually dishonest people there are.I mean they say we who believe in God have not provided enough evidence to convince them our God is real,yet they accept atheism with absolutely no evidence at all it is true and they even brag about them not needing evidence. It is a double standard that they overlook,they set the bar for evidence so high when it comes to God yet give atheism a pass when it comes to evidence. Even false religions have more evidence than atheism does.

Also from what I hear from atheist scientists who alot of atheists look up to? It requires alot more faith to believe the atheist scientist than to believe everything in the bible. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." is so much easier to believe than anything I've heard them come up with.Atheists willingly take the long way around to try to discover the truth,while acting like they don't.

As a caring Atheist, I am going to inform you that there is an argument against atheism that is irrefutable.
Atheism is the rejection of the man made claim that God exist.

You can reduce Atheism to dust, reduce it to absurdity by just supplying evidence that supports the claim that man makes about the existence of God.

Ken

Heck, why not wipe out evolution, too? All that is needed is one good solid contrary fact.

No disproof has ever been offered yet. Not one sad weary little fact.

Excuses, hoaxes, lies, strawmen, misrepresentation, distortions, those and more are trotted out
in weary procession, but never a fact is to be seen.

Or try this: tell the creationists to put up or shut up. No falsehoods, just s good fact or two.
If they agree, that will shut them up permanently.

We point out the evidence, show facts and then we are accused of writing treatises that evolutionist mock with contempt to justify their being too lazy to read and with their wondrous tolerant open minds willing to respect all beliefs...an all that jazz...

Audie wrote:

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:Nothing about atheism attracts me. I think atheists are some of the most intellectually dishonest people there are.I mean they say we who believe in God have not provided enough evidence to convince them our God is real,yet they accept atheism with absolutely no evidence at all it is true and they even brag about them not needing evidence. It is a double standard that they overlook,they set the bar for evidence so high when it comes to God yet give atheism a pass when it comes to evidence. Even false religions have more evidence than atheism does.

Also from what I hear from atheist scientists who alot of atheists look up to? It requires alot more faith to believe the atheist scientist than to believe everything in the bible. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." is so much easier to believe than anything I've heard them come up with.Atheists willingly take the long way around to try to discover the truth,while acting like they don't.

As a caring Atheist, I am going to inform you that there is an argument against atheism that is irrefutable.
Atheism is the rejection of the man made claim that God exist.

You can reduce Atheism to dust, reduce it to absurdity by just supplying evidence that supports the claim that man makes about the existence of God.

Ken

Heck, why not wipe out evolution, too? All that is needed is one good solid contrary fact.

No disproof has ever been offered yet. Not one sad weary little fact.

Excuses, hoaxes, lies, strawmen, misrepresentation, distortions, those and more are trotted out
in weary procession, but never a fact is to be seen.

Or try this: tell the creationists to put up or shut up. No falsehoods, just s good fact or two.
If they agree, that will shut them up permanently.

Only fact I can give you, as a creationist, is that I believe it to be so. I may be wrong but so might you.
Lame? maybe but true. Difference is, I admit it.

Storyteller wrote:

Audie wrote:

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:Nothing about atheism attracts me. I think atheists are some of the most intellectually dishonest people there are.I mean they say we who believe in God have not provided enough evidence to convince them our God is real,yet they accept atheism with absolutely no evidence at all it is true and they even brag about them not needing evidence. It is a double standard that they overlook,they set the bar for evidence so high when it comes to God yet give atheism a pass when it comes to evidence. Even false religions have more evidence than atheism does.

Also from what I hear from atheist scientists who alot of atheists look up to? It requires alot more faith to believe the atheist scientist than to believe everything in the bible. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." is so much easier to believe than anything I've heard them come up with.Atheists willingly take the long way around to try to discover the truth,while acting like they don't.

As a caring Atheist, I am going to inform you that there is an argument against atheism that is irrefutable.
Atheism is the rejection of the man made claim that God exist.

You can reduce Atheism to dust, reduce it to absurdity by just supplying evidence that supports the claim that man makes about the existence of God.

Ken

Heck, why not wipe out evolution, too? All that is needed is one good solid contrary fact.

No disproof has ever been offered yet. Not one sad weary little fact.

Excuses, hoaxes, lies, strawmen, misrepresentation, distortions, those and more are trotted out
in weary procession, but never a fact is to be seen.

Or try this: tell the creationists to put up or shut up. No falsehoods, just s good fact or two.
If they agree, that will shut them up permanently.

Only fact I can give you, as a creationist, is that I believe it to be so. I may be wrong but so might you.
Lame? maybe but true. Difference is, I admit it.

I am not into absolutes. Where the subject is science, it is important to know that
science is about probabilities.

All I need is to be shown good data, if my ideas are wrong, then they are wrong.

I dont feel it a virtue to hold fast the faith, no matter what.
That is a religion thing.

Also, in science..any theory is always open to disproof. Any law.

None can ever be proved true.

That being the case, either to refuse to accept evidence showing it
false, or to say the theory is false, based on bogus evidence, or faith,
is profoundly intellectually dishonest.

Let someone show ToE is wrong, or let the actual hypocrites here step forth into the spotlight.

edwardmurphy wrote:I'm not an atheist because I find atheism attractive. I'm an atheist because I don't believe the people who claim that gods exist, and I haven't seen any other evidence. Atheism actually comes with a lot of downsides. Religion offers answers and responses to loss, death, tragedy, inequality, and injustice. Atheism takes all of that away and offers nothing in return. That doesn't matter because I'm not sitting here doing a cost-benefit analysis. From my point of view atheism is the only option because gods don't exist and religion is founded on an empty throne.

You know, I like your honesty Ed here.
Many Atheists still try to argue for meaning and the like to such.
I think it is crucially important to understand the truth in what you wrote, within the debate.

Sadly, I think it impossible for anyone to truly embrace the world that Atheism would logically leaves us with.
That is no meaning and nothing in return except to just perhaps shake our fists at the absurdity of life while we just continue. And yet, we cry unfair if treated unfair. We feel anger at injustice. We do feel a person's life matters, even our own. Not just now, but in some lasting way. Religion or no religion, this is just what we feeling and intuitively believe.

One of the biggest arguments, I see for God, isn't one that proves with absolutely certainty God's existence.
BUT, rather an argument from coherency. Given all I see as real and intuitively accept to be true, which beliefs seems more coherent: God or no God.

What are all those beliefs I just accept and believe to be true. As I live life, I just naturally affirm much stuff you mentioned over and over again without even thinking. Others do too, I'm damn sure you do too particularly with injustices as they surround Christian bigots and churches. All those things you mentioned in the negative, I feel strongly there is meaning in loss and death, true meaning in life and things that happen to us, meaning in tragedy, that people really do matter and can make a lasting impact, also feeling empathy for those who have been wrongly hurt, treated unjustly and the like.

Now what makes all that coherent, and as such me true to myself? I believe you said it: Religion, by which you really mean God which is more the answer I'd accept. That is, I don't see religion as anything more than man's attempt at reaching up; I don't need any person or man-made religion telling me God exists and here He is, do this and that, say your prayers like this, believe this and that, ask no questions just do, do, do. Such repulses me. It even repulsed Christ if you read the Gospels. BUT, to reject God's existence, I may as well be rejecting myself since such would make me inconsistent with all these concepts I find meaningful -- concepts of fairness, equality, justice, love, morality and the like.

Here Audie, fify:

Heck, why not wipe out evolution God too? All that is needed is one good solid contrary fact.

No disproof has ever been offered yet. Not one sad weary little fact.

Excuses, hoaxes, lies, strawmen, misrepresentation, distortions, those and more are trotted out
in weary procession, but never a fact is to be seen.

Or try this: tell the creationists atheists to put up or shut up. No falsehoods, just s a good fact or two.
If they agree, that will shut them up permanently.

Kurieuo wrote:

edwardmurphy wrote:I'm not an atheist because I find atheism attractive. I'm an atheist because I don't believe the people who claim that gods exist, and I haven't seen any other evidence. Atheism actually comes with a lot of downsides. Religion offers answers and responses to loss, death, tragedy, inequality, and injustice. Atheism takes all of that away and offers nothing in return. That doesn't matter because I'm not sitting here doing a cost-benefit analysis. From my point of view atheism is the only option because gods don't exist and religion is founded on an empty throne.

You know, I like your honesty Ed here.
Many Atheists still try to argue for meaning and the like to such.
I think it is crucially important to understand the truth in what you wrote, within the debate.

Sadly, I think it impossible for anyone to truly embrace the world that Atheism would logically leaves us with.
That is no meaning and nothing in return except to just perhaps shake our fists at the absurdity of life while we just continue. And yet, we cry unfair if treated unfair. We feel anger at injustice. We do feel a person's life matters, even our own. Not just now, but in some lasting way. Religion or no religion, this is just what we feeling and intuitively believe.

One of the biggest arguments, I see for God, isn't one that proves with absolutely certainty God's existence.
BUT, rather an argument from coherency. Given all I see as real and intuitively accept to be true, which beliefs seems more coherent: God or no God.

What are all those beliefs I just accept and believe to be true. As I live life, I just naturally affirm much stuff you mentioned over and over again without even thinking. Others do too, I'm damn sure you do too particularly with injustices as they surround Christian bigots and churches. All those things you mentioned in the negative, I feel strongly there is meaning in loss and death, true meaning in life and things that happen to us, meaning in tragedy, that people really do matter and can make a lasting impact, also feeling empathy for those who have been wrongly hurt, treated unjustly and the like.

Now what makes all that coherent, and as such me true to myself? I believe you said it: Religion, by which you really mean God which is more the answer I'd accept. That is, I don't see religion as anything more than man's attempt at reaching up; I don't need any person or man-made religion telling me God exists and here He is, do this and that, say your prayers like this, believe this and that, ask no questions just do, do, do. Such repulses me. It even repulsed Christ if you read the Gospels. BUT, to reject God's existence, I may as well be rejecting myself since such would make me inconsistent with all these concepts I find meaningful -- concepts of fairness, equality, justice, love, morality and the like.

I agree with Ed when he said:
Religion offers answers and responses to loss, death, tragedy, inequality, and injustice. Atheism takes all of that away and offers nothing in return.
But it needs to be pointed out, that atheists do not depend upon atheism for these things; atheism is not a substitute for religion. IOW we have ways of dealing with these things, they just don’t involve God.

Ken

edwardmurphy wrote:I'm not an atheist because I find atheism attractive. I'm an atheist because I don't believe the people who claim that gods exist, and I haven't seen any other evidence. Atheism actually comes with a lot of downsides. Religion offers answers and responses to loss, death, tragedy, inequality, and injustice. Atheism takes all of that away and offers nothing in return. That doesn't matter because I'm not sitting here doing a cost-benefit analysis. From my point of view atheism is the only option because gods don't exist and religion is founded on an empty throne.

Ed,

Do you have proof to back your assertion that God(s) don't exist?