Evidence for God from Science

Audacity wrote:

RickD wrote:Audacity,

Do yourself and us, a favor, and reread this post by Jac.

Until you understand what you're arguing against, you're defeating a straw man.

I did, and replied right below it.

Sorry, but I don't know how to find the linking url to any particular post.

And again, Jac addressed your answer here.

If you don't understand what Jac is saying, politely ask him to explain it to you. Politeness goes a long way here. Jac is a really good teacher. He's dumbed down a lot of hard to understand topics for me.

RickD wrote:

Audacity wrote:

RickD wrote:Audacity,

Do yourself and us, a favor, and reread this post by Jac.

Until you understand what you're arguing against, you're defeating a straw man.

I did, and replied right below it.

Sorry, but I don't know how to find the linking url to any particular post.

And again, Jac addressed your answer here.

If you don't understand what Jac is saying, politely ask him to explain it to you. Politeness goes a long way here. Jac is a really good teacher. He's dumbed down a lot of hard to understand topics for me.

Then I feel a bit sorry for you. And to be fair to Jac, I won't say any more.

Audacity wrote:

RickD wrote:Audacity,

Do yourself and us, a favor, and reread this post by Jac.

Until you understand what you're arguing against, you're defeating a straw man.

I did, and replied right below it.

Sorry, but I don't know how to find the linking url to any particular post.

IceMobster wrote:

Audacity wrote:

RickD wrote:Audacity,

Do yourself and us, a favor, and reread this post by Jac.

Until you understand what you're arguing against, you're defeating a straw man.

I did, and replied right below it.

Sorry, but I don't know how to find the linking url to any particular post.

Cool! Thank you very much.

Audacity wrote:

Storyteller wrote:I meant what are the causes that precede and put into action.

The chain of cause/effect events in your life that ultimately led up to the moment of your doing.

In the case of will, I believe we have free will, something more than instinct. We question things. We get lost in the beauty of a sunset.
We have a soul, a spirit, that has the ability to do this, we have free will.

Fine, but this isn't what I'm asking. I'm asking how the will goes about deciding to do this rather than that.

By thinking about what's the best thing to do or what we want to do? For example, it's extremely hot around here right now; I'm not working all week and I was thinking about going shopping for something in particular. However, I didn't want to leave our dog out in the heat unnecessarily (I work at home so most of the time she can be inside), so I decided it could wait till the weather was a bit cooler. Sure, I was very influenced by an outside cause (the heat - literally outside) but I would have been free to leave the dog outside (she has to be out sometimes anyway) and go shopping.

I realised that what the others were saying about turning left or right was true as well - if there's a sign saying I can't turn right I make the choice to obey the sign - I'd be free to ignore it or even crash my car into a wall if that was to the right. Only being physically stopped would take away my choice to go any further! There could be different influences on my decision to obey or disobey a sign but ultimately at some point I'd make the choice.

Nicki wrote: By thinking about what's the best thing to do or what we want to do? For example, it's extremely hot around here right now; I'm not working all week and I was thinking about going shopping for something in particular. However, I didn't want to leave our dog out in the heat unnecessarily (I work at home so most of the time she can be inside), so I decided it could wait till the weather was a bit cooler. Sure, I was very influenced by an outside cause (the heat - literally outside) but I would have been free to leave the dog outside (she has to be out sometimes anyway) and go shopping.

I realised that what the others were saying about turning left or right was true as well - if there's a sign saying I can't turn right I make the choice to obey the sign - I'd be free to ignore it or even crash my car into a wall if that was to the right. Only being physically stopped would take away my choice to go any further! There could be different influences on my decision to obey or disobey a sign but ultimately at some point I'd make the choice.

Understood, but it's missing the point of the how. How does the will decide to do this rather than that. I suggest you read or re-read my opening post.

Audacity wrote:

Nicki wrote: By thinking about what's the best thing to do or what we want to do? For example, it's extremely hot around here right now; I'm not working all week and I was thinking about going shopping for something in particular. However, I didn't want to leave our dog out in the heat unnecessarily (I work at home so most of the time she can be inside), so I decided it could wait till the weather was a bit cooler. Sure, I was very influenced by an outside cause (the heat - literally outside) but I would have been free to leave the dog outside (she has to be out sometimes anyway) and go shopping.

I realised that what the others were saying about turning left or right was true as well - if there's a sign saying I can't turn right I make the choice to obey the sign - I'd be free to ignore it or even crash my car into a wall if that was to the right. Only being physically stopped would take away my choice to go any further! There could be different influences on my decision to obey or disobey a sign but ultimately at some point I'd make the choice.

Understood, but it's missing the point of the how. How does the will decide to do this rather than that. I suggest you read or re-read my opening post.

And again, I point you to what Jac said about "how".
He wrote:

There's nothing, then, especially mysterious here. The will is a judgment. But that judgment is not predetermined to any particular good/end but is naturally fitted to many goods/ends. Therefore, the determination to this rather than that end just is what we call "free will." To ask "how" is to misunderstand what it is. "How" is answered by knowing what it is: the person makes a judgment and then wills in light of that judgment. Willing, like knowledge, is a natural power or capacity of the human, and that in virtue of his nature.

RickD wrote: And again, I point you to what Jac said about "how".
He wrote:

There's nothing, then, especially mysterious here. The will is a judgment.

A "what" is not a "how."

But that judgment is not predetermined to any particular good/end but is naturally fitted to many goods/ends.

Completely irrelevant because it fails to address the "how."

Therefore, the determination to this rather than that end just is what we call "free will."

This "therefore" is no more relevant than, 2 + 7 = 9, therefore pigs oink.

To ask "how" is to misunderstand what it is.

And this dodging the issue because one doesn't like, or can't answer the question is simply sad. The "what" is not the issue no matter how much Jac needs it to be.

"How" is answered by knowing what it is:

Like knowing what a computer is answers the question, "How does it work?"

the person makes a judgment and then wills in light of that judgment. Willing, like knowledge, is a natural power or capacity of the human, and that in virtue of his nature.

Nice, but the "how" still remains unanswered. This utter disconnect---insisting there is no "how," only "what"---is probably the worst I've ever seen.

Audacity, please bear with me.

I can be slow on the uptake sometimes, but more fool you if you dismiss me for that butwhat, exactly, are you asking? How what? Free will works?

Storyteller wrote:Audacity, please bear with me.

I can be slow on the uptake sometimes, but more fool you if you dismiss me for that butwhat, exactly, are you asking? How what? Free will works?

Yes. In short: How is it the will does this rather than that?...

Audacity wrote:

Storyteller wrote:Audacity, please bear with me.

I can be slow on the uptake sometimes, but more fool you if you dismiss me for that butwhat, exactly, are you asking? How what? Free will works?

Yes. In short: How is it the will does this rather than that?...

Because we choose.

Because we reason, rightly or wrongly, but we can choose.

That choice is free will.

Animals don't have free will, they don't choose. We do. Every day.

Animals act on instinct, so do we to a certain level, genetics and such. But we have something more. What is that, if not reason and free will?

Storyteller wrote:

Audacity wrote:

Storyteller wrote:Audacity, please bear with me.

I can be slow on the uptake sometimes, but more fool you if you dismiss me for that butwhat, exactly, are you asking? How what? Free will works?

Yes. In short: How is it the will does this rather than that?...

Because we choose.

Because we reason, rightly or wrongly, but we can choose.

That choice is free will.

Wouldn't a choice be the result of exercising the free will, rather than being identical with it?

In any case, how is it your will came to "choose" A rather than B?

But to have that choice, you have to choose. You exercise free will. The freedom to choose.

Audacity wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

Audacity wrote:

Storyteller wrote:Audacity, please bear with me.

I can be slow on the uptake sometimes, but more fool you if you dismiss me for that butwhat, exactly, are you asking? How what? Free will works?

Yes. In short: How is it the will does this rather than that?...

Because we choose.

Because we reason, rightly or wrongly, but we can choose.

That choice is free will.

Audacity wrote: Wouldn't a choice be the result of exercising the free will, rather than being identical with it?

Yes

Audacity wrote: In any case, how is it your will came to "choose" A rather than B?

Certainly, there were some factors in play which "leaned" your mind to choose A rather than B, but, in the end, mind chooses this or that.
If I take a gun and shoot a random guy walking down the street right now, was I determined to do so? But if I don't do it was I determined not to do so? See, I can do any mentioned course of action which is why it is called free will and not just will.

Even though, having read your OP again, I guess the casual effect affected me in a way that all of what I said is pretty much irrelevant since I didn't answer the "how"...

It chooses because thats what it does, what it is.

Same way gravity does what it does, because thats what it is.