Hortator wrote:melanie wrote:I have often been troubled by this notion of women causing men to stumble.
Is that an Australian saying? I can't say I've ever heard of that. I know that behind every great man is a great woman, and behind every great woman is a great man checking out her great behind.
melanie wrote: It just never sat right with me. I'm aware that we live in a society that is extremely sexualised and fashion seems to be very provocative but not all the time it depends what's in trend. It's also about common sense, swimsuit is okay at the beach, not so okay at the supermarket. No different for men, put a shirt on when you're out for lunch, at the shops ect.
As Christians both men and women, our standard has to be measured by our own common sense and what we find acceptable for ourselves, spouses and God.
There are many Christians and by Christians I mean mostly men who seem to grade a woman's spirituality by her clothing attire. 'You wouldn't want to 'cause' a man to stumble'.
Ah, I think I hear you now.
melanie wrote: Apparently the latest assault on women's attire is the yoga pant, or gym pant.
If anyone has done yoga, a spin class, step class, Pilates ect, a little house on the prairie dress just ain't going to cut it.
In saying that teeny tiny shorts with your bum hanging out topped with a boob tube which I have seen women wear to these classes is just as ridiculous and completely impractical.
I have actually talked to women candidly about this subject, specifically yoga pants. The consensus is actually quite positive: girls like yoga pants because they are comfortable and look good, and guys like yoga pants because they look good. It's a big win-win.
melanie wrote:
It's about personal responsibility.
If anyone male or female has issues with lust then that is their own weakness best dealt with by laying it before God and accepting responsibility instead of blaming and defaming others.
The names that these woman and often girls are sometimes called is a disgrace or the assumptions made about them, done so by Christian men who are only doing so because of their own weakness an inability to face their own demons. It's easier to blame a woman for wearing yoga pants too tight than to took at yourself honestly and authentically and to address that you have an issue.
Lust is very different to finding someone attractive. Part of our human condition is to find pleasure in beauty. It's not a sin to think someone of the opposite sex is attractive or beautiful. To recognise that they have a great smile, athletic body, beautiful hair or whatever.
Precisely. I myself am a sucker for women in dresses, it's just the most flattering and feminine item of clothing I think a woman can wear. But I am still obligated to behave like a gentleman no matter if she is wearing a shawl or a burqa.
melanie wrote: Lust is when those thoughts turn deviant and lewd.
When the imagination takes those thoughts to a place they shouldn't go, it is a self gratifying and self serving desire. It has nothing to do with the other person and everything to do with ourselves.
It is not the fault of the busty woman with the low cut top, or the muscular man parading around with his shirt off.
Right once again.
melanie wrote:
I'm not arguing whether it's morally okay for people to dress a certain way, that is a different discussion. Yes, there are people out there who dress in a way to deliberately sexually exploit themselves and others, but those people represent quite a small percentage of the population.
I'm talking about the woman with the gym pants on, the summer dress that sits above the knee, the top that shows some cleavage.
I'm not happy with the whole, women watch yourselves you may cause a man to stumble line. How about the men watch themselves, if they are stumbling best to pick your own feet up a little rather than looking to throw the blame around.
This hits close to home for me. Of all the sins I struggle against, I think lust is my biggest weakness. I don't think I'm alone on this though. For a man, every time we see a good looking woman, it's like the first time we have ever seen a woman in our lives. It's the one joy of life that never gets old.
Like you said previously, we live in a pretty perverted culture. Women have simply never looked more desirable than they do today, I believe, is thanks to advanced clothing manufacturing that allows for cheap and easy to produce materials for clothing such as yoga pants as mentioned.
I understand the women that want to wear yoga pants: they are constantly pressured by themselves and other girls to look presentable 24/7. If they want to relax, put their hair in a ponytail, wear a sweatshirt, yoga pants, and just be comfortable without caring, they 100% have the right to.
Sorry for my late reply, haven't been around much lately.
I loved your candour, your post made me laugh.
It did though exaggerate a few points I was making, men do react to the female form and perhaps our choice of clothing.
But where does that leave us?
So one woman can afford high quality yoga pants that aren't made poorly, using high quality fabric that is not too shabbily made and too sheer, whilst another affords the Target brand that just happens to be too sheer in fabric and poor in quality.
Who's to blame for a wandering mans eye?
The woman?
The manufacturer?
Or the man?
The change that has occurred in fashion and what's acceptable isn't only in woman's fashion. My point being that we live in a society that bears more skin. Men and women alike.
Men have never looked more desirable either.
When you look back at men's fashion over the centuries it has changed a great deal.
The sexual perversion of society in particular regards to the lack of clothing is not a solely female issue. I live on the coast, men get around with very little on in the summer months. It's not unusual to see men with their shirts off and low riding shorts.
I'm not arguing whether society's standard has fallen, because it has.
My issue is with men that accuse woman of causing men to stumble, and no, it's not an Aussie saying, this attitude is fairly entrenched in evangelical circles in the US and abroad.
We are responsible for our own short comings.
Blaming the fashion, or the man or woman is not taking responsibility for ourselves.
Within all this talk of women's clothes, yoga pants ect that exists within Christian circles, why is the onus always placed on women?
Why isn't there such an outrage towards men who flaunt their bodies?
Take an honest look around us, just as many men are doing so as woman.
B.W asked me the question in this thread can a man cause a woman to stumble?
Before I answer, Horatar my response isn't just to you at all, Your response was real, honest and refreshing, I probably shouldn't have quoted you, it's just a general response to my question.
So in answer to B.W question No.
A man's choice of attire cannot 'cause' me to stumble.
Causation is not the result of choice of clothing but rather my weakness in sin. Responsibility lies with me.
I'm not going to attempt to make excuses for my lust by placing blame on another.
That's my issue.
True story....
The other day I was driving along and there was a guy who was mowing his lawn with no shirt on and very low riding, short shorts. He obviously worked out a lot and was really fit, toned and muscular.
I drove past and was like 'whoa man, you're going to cause a traffic accident'. Lol. I had a laugh, kept my car on the road somehow and continued on my way.
No biggy, no sin there. I noticed a really attractive guy.
Absentmindedly along the way to home, without even consciously doing so, my thoughts wondered off to another place. As soon as it happened I called myself in check.
Later on that night I thought about the situation, held myself accountable and prayed. Not in any self depleting, self hatefull way but I asked for forgiveness and self control.
At no point did I become cynical or nasty towards men that mow with no shirt on. At no point did I minimalise my actions on the account of some else's choice of clothing. At no point did I justify my stumbling with some bloke who was going about his business.
It was my issue.
Alone.
Society will go on as it will, completely at times and more often than not against the will of God but we are all responsible for our own thoughts and actions.
It's a struggle between the world and flesh and the kingdom of God, we struggle with it everyday in whatever form it's thrown at us.
We are called to rise above and conquer, we can never successfully do so when we blame the world for our shortcomings.
I'm a huge believer in personal responsibility for behaviour.
) response when a lovely lady walks by - least not when the missus is watching you. 
Most of us know how to appreciate a nice view discretely, and with a neutral look on one's face. And yet, we still get busted, often because she "just knew you were looking at that woman." My response: "Well, sweetheart, I'm a man, and I'm not dead (yet 
)!"