Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:

SoCalExile wrote:MacArthur is talking out both sides of his mouth (like the Mormons do), on the one hand it's grace via faith, but then it's works or it isn't faith, which doesn't merit grace. Which is to make works the underlying determining factor of grace, which flies into the face of Paul's own definition of grace in Romans 11:6.

Again, it's the fine art of telling people you believe the same thing they do but in fact, you've redefined terms and believe the exact opposite.

Bingo.

Another way to put it, is that MacArthur is smuggling in works through the back door.

I think a wise knave once said that.

I have many many many issues with MacArthur, but I don't see how a person can honestly accuse MacArthur of "smuggling in works through the back door"

Please give me a quote from MacArthur that demonstrates this alleged "smuggling".
I've already responded to mischaracterizations of what MacArthur has said and some of the typical anti-LS strawmen.

But I have yet to see any direct quote from MacArthur where he claims that works are required for salvation.

I have no problem departing from MacArthur when he departs from Scripture, and there are are a number of places where I do believe MacArthur departs from Scripture.
It's simple, give me a quote about LS, and I'll be happy to give my opinion on whether or not I think that quote is Scriptural.

I think it's ironic when people misrepresent the positions of others and then turn around and accuse them of "redefining terms".

In Christ

DBowling wrote:

RickD wrote:

SoCalExile wrote:MacArthur is talking out both sides of his mouth (like the Mormons do), on the one hand it's grace via faith, but then it's works or it isn't faith, which doesn't merit grace. Which is to make works the underlying determining factor of grace, which flies into the face of Paul's own definition of grace in Romans 11:6.

Again, it's the fine art of telling people you believe the same thing they do but in fact, you've redefined terms and believe the exact opposite.

Bingo.

Another way to put it, is that MacArthur is smuggling in works through the back door.

I think a wise knave once said that.

I have many many many issues with MacArthur, but I don't see how a person can honestly accuse MacArthur of "smuggling in works through the back door"

Please give me a quote from MacArthur that demonstrates this alleged "smuggling".
I've already responded to mischaracterizations of what MacArthur has said and some of the typical anti-LS strawmen.

But I have yet to see any direct quote from MacArthur where he claims that works are required for salvation.

I have no problem departing from MacArthur when he departs from Scripture, and there are are a number of places where I do believe MacArthur departs from Scripture.
It's simple, give me a quote about LS, and I'll be happy to give my opinion on whether or not I think that quote is Scriptural.

I think it's ironic when people misrepresent the positions of others and then turn around and accuse them of "redefining terms".

In Christ

DBowling,

Look at SoCal's quote. MacArthur won't come right out and say that his belief is works-based. That's what SoCal means by talking out of both sides of his mouth. On one hand, MacArthur says salvation is by grace through faith. But on the other hand, if one doesn't show works, then one doesn't have faith. Which makes some kind of measurement of works, how to determine if one is saved. That's smuggling in works through the back door.

I planned to address your previous post, using either macarthurs own words, or another Lordship adherent's words. That way I can show from what someone who believes in it actually says. CARM is all well and good, but I'd rather argue against someone's own words that believes in LS.

It's gonna take me some time just to do some simple research. But I'll get to it ASAP.

Just keep this in mind...

When one starts using works as a measure of someone's salvation, one has made salvation by works, not grace. And one is preaching a different gospel. Which makes it aberrant.

Philip wrote:Again, if a CHILD can know enough to express what is in his heart, so as to be saved, if the saved thief on the cross could have, shortly before, ALSO been mocking Jesus (Matthew 27:44), before suddenly realizing exactly Who He must actually be - and yet was confirmed as acceptable to Jesus with such a basic faith of recognizing and asking Jesus to remember him - well, according to the criteria from most of the LS guys, this would have been impossible, or highly dubious.

As an FYI... I was born again when I was six years old.
I consider myself to be an "LS guy" but I don't consider the work that Jesus performed in my life as a child to be dubious in any way. And my parents will be more than willing to testify that I did not immediately reach sinless perfection as a child.

And decades later my wife will testify that I still have not attained sinless perfection.
Sanctification is a life long process that is not complete this side of eternity.


In Christ

RickD wrote: Just keep this in mind...

When one starts using works as a measure of someone's salvation, one has made salvation by works, not grace. And one is preaching a different gospel. Which makes it aberrant.

I do not think the following two statements are equivalent
Genuine faith requires works (unScriptural)
Genuine faith produces works (Scriptural)
The assertion that those two statements are somehow equivalent is one of the strawman arguments that I strongly disagree with.

And I strongly disagree with the assertion that LS teaches salvation by works.

Again I go back to Ephesians 2:8-10 which I believe gives us the complete picture.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

As I said earlier, according to Scripture
We are saved by grace
We are saved through faith
We are not saved by works
But we are saved to do good works

Jesus, Paul, James, and John all state that works are an indicator of genuine faith. That is the clear teaching of Scripture.

Do you agree with my assertion that Jesus, Paul, James, and John all state that works are an indicator of genuine faith?

In Christ

DBowling wrote:

RickD wrote: Just keep this in mind...

When one starts using works as a measure of someone's salvation, one has made salvation by works, not grace. And one is preaching a different gospel. Which makes it aberrant.

I do not think the following two statements are equivalent
Genuine faith requires works (unScriptural)
Genuine faith produces works (Scriptural)
The assertion that those two statements are somehow equivalent is one of the strawman arguments that I strongly disagree with.

And I strongly disagree with the assertion that LS teaches salvation by works.

Again I go back to Ephesians 2:8-10 which I believe gives us the complete picture.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

As I said earlier, according to Scripture
We are saved by grace
We are saved through faith
We are not saved by works
But we are saved to do good works

Jesus, Paul, James, and John all state that works are an indicator of genuine faith. That is the clear teaching of Scripture.

Do you agree with my assertion that Jesus, Paul, James, and John all state that works are an indicator of genuine faith?

In Christ

Why are you making a distinction by calling "faith", "genuine faith". I don't think there's a distinction made by scripture.

No. I don't believe Jesus, Paul, James, and John all state that works are an indicator of genuine faith. I agree that we are saved in Christ, to do good works. But I don't think works are a measure of salvation. Salvation is by grace, through faith, period. Believers should produce good works, and will produce good works, if they continue trusting Christ.

To your comparison, I think I'd put it this way:

Salvation requires works. (Unscriptural)
Sanctification by the Holy Spirit, produces good works, in those who continue to trust Christ.(scriptural)

By saying that genuine faith produces works, you are saying that:
1) those who are "truly" saved produce works.
2) those who don't produce works, aren't saved.

Which again, makes works the measure of salvation. Which again, is smuggling in works through the back door.

I think the difference in what we're saying is this:

You're saying that Jesus, Paul, James, and John all state that works are an indicator of genuine faith.

I'm saying that Jesus, Paul, James, and John all state that works are what all believers are saved to do, but not all do. The difference is the believer who continues to trust Christ, and the believer who doesn't.

See the difference?

For one, the issue with sin is that we all fall short of God's glory, i.e. perfection (Romans 3:23). So it isn't about performance, it's about the nature of fallen man.

Two, when we are saved we are given a new nature, but the old nature still resides until we die ( Romans 7:14-25, 1 Corinthians 15:44-49, Galatians 5:17). So we still fall short of God's glory, but we are freed from the slavery of sin, though we can choose to sin. Almost all of the epistles involve encouraging Christians to not follow after the flesh but follow after the spirit. (Why is that needed if the Christians WILL produce good works? Unless we aren't guaranteed to, because some may still follow after the flesh and be carnal like the Corinthians were).

Three, 1 John 1:8,10 tell us that we still sin. James 2:10 says if we break one part of the law we break it all. So yelling at someone in traffic requires just as much grace as any other sin, before and after we are saved.

Four, Paul repeatedly states that we are saved by faith (most notably in Romans 3:20-4:8). Jesus states we are saved by believing in Him repeatedly in John's gospel (John 3:14-18, 5:24, 6:28,37-40,47, 11:25, etc)

Five, Salvation isn't about whether or not we deserve it by living a good life. It's about the grace of God given to us freely as a gift, and there's nothing we can do to deserve it. (Ephesians 2:8-9) BTW some Calvinists will say that faith is the gift, Paul clarifies in Ephesians 3:7 that it is indeed grace we are gifted with.

Six, Once we are saved, even we can't "unsave" ourselves (John 10:28, Ephesians 4:30, 1 Cor. 3:15, 2 Timothy 2:13)

Seven, Saved Christians do get punished by temporal punishment from God if they sin willfully (Proverbs 15:10, Hebrews 12:5-11, Jeremiah 2:19). The worst case scenario would be by premature physical death (1 John 5:16-17, 1 Corinthians 11:30) but their eternal salvation remains intact and untouched (see point six).

Rick: The difference is the believer who continues to trust Christ, and the believer who doesn't.

See the difference?

One question with your use of the word "continues." Not to sidetrack, but Scripture indicates that 1) Salvation is freely offered to ALL / but rejected by many, that 2) is is a work BEGUN and COMPLETED by Christ (though we must desire acceptance of those), and that 3) WE are not the reason why we remain saved - JESUS is. He is both the Author, Initiator, AND the COMPLETER of our salvation - else, we'd never be able to have confidence that our unreliable selves would be able to persevere to the very end. I'd have almost NO confidence in such, knowing so well my sin nature's capabilities. And is that not a Jesus-PLUS issue? As in, Jesus saves us, but it is up to US to keep the faith, so as to insure we end up with God forever. How insecure is that? I mean, how could one enter ETERNAL life, and then later back out of it (Guess it wasn't ETERNAL, eh?) Not to mention, Paul could never say what He did about him being "confident" of Christ continuing His good work in us. Rick, I doubt that's what you meant by using that - just making sure. (So many "iron sharpeners" around here ).

Philip wrote:

Rick: The difference is the believer who continues to trust Christ, and the believer who doesn't.

See the difference?

One question with your use of the word "continues." Not to sidetrack, but Scripture indicates that 1) Salvation is freely offered to ALL / but rejected by many, that 2) is is a work BEGUN and COMPLETED by Christ (though we must desire acceptance of those), and that 3) WE are not the reason why we remain saved - JESUS is. He is both the Author, Initiator, AND the COMPLETER of our salvation - else, we'd never be able to have confidence that our unreliable selves would be able to persevere to the very end. I'd have almost NO confidence in such, knowing so well my sin nature's capabilities. And is that not a Jesus-PLUS issue? As in, Jesus saves us, but it is up to US to keep the faith, so as to insure we end up with God forever. How insecure is that? Not to mention, Paul could never say what He did about him being "confident" of Christ continuing His good work in us. Rick, I doubt that's what you meant by using that - just making sure. (So many "iron sharpeners" around here ).

Thanks for giving me a chance to clarify Philip. I hope as this thread continues, if nothing else, we all can understand better, what each of us is saying.

I absolutely agree that salvation is begun and completed in Christ, through the HS. I'm specifically referring to producing good works. SoCal put it a different way that also makes sense. Those who continue to live by the spirit will produce good works. And those who live by the flesh, may not produce good works. That doesn't mean the believer living according to the flesh, is any less saved than the one who lives according to the spirit. Both will be made complete, by God. But, the one living according to the flesh isn't living the life of a believer that God wants him to.

We might even say that a believer who always lives according to the flesh, has a useless faith. That doesn't mean no faith. It just means he's not living a life according to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

I hope that clears it up a little.

RickD wrote: Why are you making a distinction by calling "faith", "genuine faith". I don't think there's a distinction made by scripture.

James does distinguish between the dead faith of the demons which is nothing more than believing certain facts about Jesus, and a living faith that produces works.

By saying that genuine faith produces works, you are saying that:
1) those who are "truly" saved produce works.
2) those who don't produce works, aren't saved.

I am saying that genuine faith results in a person becoming a new creation and receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit.
And I am saying a "new creation" who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit will by definition exhibit fruits of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Which again, makes works the measure of salvation. Which again, is smuggling in works through the back door.

I distinguish between the measure of salvation (which is the person and work of Jesus Christ alone) and manifestations of the work of the Holy Spirit in a person's life which provide indicators regarding the presence or lack thereof of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

You're saying that Jesus, Paul, James, and John all state that works are an indicator of genuine faith.

I'm saying that Jesus, Paul, James, and John all state that works are what all believers are saved to do, but not all do.
See the difference?

Now you're sounding like my dad (which is a compliment btw)

In Christ

RickD wrote:
Why are you making a distinction by calling "faith", "genuine faith". I don't think there's a distinction made by scripture.

DBowling wrote:
James does distinguish between the dead faith of the demons which is nothing more than believing certain facts about Jesus, and a living faith that produces works.

Although I disagree with the distinction, I see why you're making the distinction. I'll take it a step further by saying that those who don't produce good works, have a dead faith. But a dead faith isn't "no faith". It's still the same saving faith in Christ that someone has, who does good works.

RickD wrote:
By saying that genuine faith produces works, you are saying that:
1) those who are "truly" saved produce works.
2) those who

DBowling wrote:
I am saying that genuine faith results in a person becoming a new creation and receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit.
And I am saying a "new creation" who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit will by definition exhibit fruits of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Ok. Our disagreement lies with the underlined. When you say someone indwelt by the HS will exhibit fruits of the HS(good works). I tend to agree to a point. It starts to get dicey when fallible humans are the ones judging what is or isn't fruit of the spirit. And again, I'd just add that even when you put it that way, if you're saying that all believers will exhibit fruits of the HS, then you're still making that exhibition of fruit, as a condition for salvation. Which takes away from the simple gospel of by Grace, through faith.

RickD wrote:
Which again, makes works the measure of salvation. Which again, is smuggling in works through the back door.

DBowling wrote:
I distinguish between the measure of salvation (which is the person and work of Jesus Christ alone) and manifestations of the work of the Holy Spirit in a person's life which provide indicators regarding the presence or lack thereof of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

And what I'm saying, is that good works is not THE proof that one has the indwelling HS. One is saved, and has the indwelling HS, because one has trusted Christ for salvation(By grace, through faith). Not to mention as I said above, that what you or I may think are indicators, could just be us not getting the full picture of that particular believer's life. Which is something that only God can know.

RickD wrote:
You're saying that Jesus, Paul, James, and John all state that works are an indicator of genuine faith.

I'm saying that Jesus, Paul, James, and John all state that works are what all believers are saved to do, but not all do.
See the difference?

DBowling wrote:
Now you're sounding like my dad (which is a compliment btw)

Well, if your Dad holds to the same theology as Hodges, then you'll probably see a lot of similarities between him and me on this topic. I don't know all that Zane Hodges believed, but as far as the Free Grace/Lordship Salvation discussion, I probably agree quite a bit with him, if I were to compare.

I think you should be a good son, and listen to your Dad on this one.

James 2, in MacArthur's view is contradictory with Romans 4:5-6. Yet both are true - in different contexts. James is speaking to "brethren", a word he uses 17 times, so he's talking to the already saved; therefore, if works naturally followed faith, then saying that "faith without works is dead" is nonsense to saved brethren!

Unless there is a such thing as "faith without works".

Verse 18 sums it up. James is writing about witness, and service to the Lord, not salvation, which Paul wrote about in Romans.
v.19, he uses demons as a rhetorical device to overstate the fact that professing belief doesn't mean much of you don't witness it by your actions. That's has nothing to do with their salvation, which is already sealed, but the salvation of the lost.
v.20-22, justified to whom? Remember the word for justification is a legal term, and can be used in multiple contexts. It's clear from the passage (and the epistle) that it means to be justified in the sight of the world.
Verse 26 gives us a clear analogy. In the Greek, he says "Exactly like a body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead".

So is a body without a spirit, still a body? Yes
Is a body without a spirit a false body? No.

So is faith without works still faith? Yes.
Is faith without works a false faith? No.

It's just lifeless and stinks.

RickD wrote: You're saying that Jesus, Paul, James, and John all state that works are an indicator of genuine faith.

I'm saying that Jesus, Paul, James, and John all state that works are what all believers are saved to do, but not all do.
See the difference?

Here are some specific Scriptures to support my assertion

Jesus
Matthew 7:21-23

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Paul
Romans 6:1-7

6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

John
1 John 2:3-6

3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

James
James 2:14-19

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

In Christ

Another of the common arguments by LS disciples is that "repentance" is a point of performance that must be met for "true faith" to happen, without it, yo're creating false converts.

There's just one problem: the Book of John - the word for "repent" (metanoia or metanoeo) doesn't appear in it; yet John's stated reason for writing this gospel in John 20:31 says it's purpose was so we might believe and have eternal life. So by the standards of MacArthur and other adherents of this belief (such as Ray Comfort), John is creating false converts with a false gospel.

Of course, if you use the erroneous definition of "repent (that of "turning from sin"), then you have an issue. If you use the Greek definition of the term("change your mind"), then it's a given when you believe, and not really a point you have to make when evangelizing.

DBowling wrote:Matthew 7:21-23

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Didn't I already cover this one?

Paul
Romans 6:1-7
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

Yeah we shouldn't sin, but that doesn't mean we don't, and 1 John 1:8,10 is still there. why would John write that if sin was something you could stop? Yet there's the folly in LS and works-gospels, and it's Romans 3:20-23, and Isaiah 64:6.

There's a reason God chose us to work, and it's in 1 Corinthians 1:26-30; it's because, literally, we're weak morons.

The problem with LS is that when you tell them that we are saved by faith regardless of our works, they tend to go to the other extreme and say we're endorsing sin. We aren't; we're just saying that our sin is covered by the blood of Christ, and He's not 'peeking under the sheets', as it were.

We will be rewarded according to our work, and we may be denied some rewards, but heaven isn't one of those things. That's the thing all the works-gospels get wrong. They can't see the difference between justification before God and sanctification, they usually flip the two and make justification dependent on sanctification.

They also tend to let the terms define the context rather than let the context define the terms.

John
1 John 2:3-6
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

There's an issue here, if you are implying that we must not sin to claim we know Jesus, and therefore claim to be Justified before God, then John is contradicting himself or otherwise telling us there's no way to know Jesus, according to 1 John 1:8,10.

Well scripture can't contradict itself. So what is John talking about? Sanctification. Note that here, John is saying "I know Him", yet in Matthew 7:23, Jesus says "I never knew YOU", which further reinforces the point that our justification before God, once we believe, is not on our performance; however, our sanctification is.

There's also the point of what John meant with, "do what he commands"; which we can say that the #1 command Jesus made, especially in the Gospel of John, was "believe in Me"; or perhaps John meant the greatest commandment...it's the same thing.

James
James 2:14-19
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

I addressed this already. James is in the context of "brethren" i.e. the already saved. James is talking about Christians and their service and witness. Now if James is talking to saved brethren on the value of works as a witness, then why bother if it is automatic and guaranteed? Well it seems it isn't, thus the edification here.

RickD wrote:

RickD wrote:
Why are you making a distinction by calling "faith", "genuine faith". I don't think there's a distinction made by scripture.

DBowling wrote:
James does distinguish between the dead faith of the demons which is nothing more than believing certain facts about Jesus, and a living faith that produces works.

Although I disagree with the distinction, I see why you're making the distinction. I'll take it a step further by saying that those who don't produce good works, have a dead faith. But a dead faith isn't "no faith". It's still the same saving faith in Christ that someone has, who does good works.

I've encountered that argument a number of times, and I've seriously considered it, but I just don't think the text and context can get you there.

James is contrasting the dead faith of the demons with the living faith of Abraham. Within the context of this passage I don't think there is any legitimate way to interpret the dead faith of the demons as representing saving faith.

DBowling wrote:
I am saying that genuine faith results in a person becoming a new creation and receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit.
And I am saying a "new creation" who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit will by definition exhibit fruits of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Ok. Our disagreement lies with the underlined. When you say someone indwelt by the HS will exhibit fruits of the HS(good works). I tend to agree to a point. It starts to get dicey when fallible humans are the ones judging what is or isn't fruit of the spirit. And again, I'd just add that even when you put it that way, if you're saying that all believers will exhibit fruits of the HS, then you're still making that exhibition of fruit, as a condition for salvation. Which takes away from the simple gospel of by Grace, through faith.

Again you are attributing to me a position that I vigorously oppose.

I never have and never will assert that exhibition of fruit or any other work for that matter is a condition for salvation.
There is a huge difference between something being a condition for salvation and something being a result of salvation.

Saying that salvation leads to good works does not take away from the Gospel, that is exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10

DBowling wrote:
I distinguish between the measure of salvation (which is the person and work of Jesus Christ alone) and manifestations of the work of the Holy Spirit in a person's life which provide indicators regarding the presence or lack thereof of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

And what I'm saying, is that good works is not THE proof that one has the indwelling HS. One is saved, and has the indwelling HS, because one has trusted Christ for salvation(By grace, through faith). Not to mention as I said above, that what you or I may think are indicators, could just be us not getting the full picture of that particular believer's life. Which is something that only God can know.

I pretty much agree with what you say above...

RickD wrote:
You're saying that Jesus, Paul, James, and John all state that works are an indicator of genuine faith.

I'm saying that Jesus, Paul, James, and John all state that works are what all believers are saved to do, but not all do.
See the difference?

DBowling wrote:
Now you're sounding like my dad (which is a compliment btw)

Well, if your Dad holds to the same theology as Hodges, then you'll probably see a lot of similarities between him and me on this topic. I don't know all that Zane Hodges believed, but as far as the Free Grace/Lordship Salvation discussion, I probably agree quite a bit with him, if I were to compare.

I think you should be a good son, and listen to your Dad on this one.

I can't think of any person whose opinion on Biblical matters I respect more than my father, but if Scripture comes into conflict with the opinions of my father then I have to go with Scripture even over my father... and my father wouldn't want it any other way.

But that doesn't mean that we can't have intense discussions about what Scripture says