Evidence for God from Science

Here is the thing, if the HS was NOT a distinct person, was simply God's ( or Jesus') spirit, why would the writers make the distinction of the HS activity VS God's ( Or Jesus') activity?
If that HS was not God ( have the same nature as God), why would the writers attribute the attributes that ONLY God has to "Him" ( the HS)?

The answer: They wrote the HS that way because the HS is fully God ( all the attributes of God and with the same nature as God) and is distinct with a "personality".

The trinity is a foundational belief of Christianity and those who reject it can be argued to not be Christians for they are making a false God of there vain imagination. If you go back to church history, they were pretty strong on this point!

IceMobster wrote:

B. W. wrote:And yes Jesus claimed he is God in the bible, by the titles Son of Man and Son of God...

As well as in: John 20:28, John 5:23, John 9:35-38, John 14:9

Why are all of them from the Gospel of John??

So you would actually read the book of John...

I could through the entire Old Testament and New as well but John's book sum's all these up consciously.

IceMobster wrote:
How does John 5:19-24 confirm that Jesus is God?
19 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all that he himself is doing; and greater works than these will he show him, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

What is with the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son? They have the same nature, they both are able to judge, they are both God, are they not? So, how come judgment is "reserved" to the Son?

Again, re-read the example post concerning the orange and read Philippians 2:5,6,7,8,9,10,11 and Isaiah 45:21,22,23,24,25

Look at Isa 45:23 again and compare with John 1:1,2,3,14 and you will notice the word - WORD as used in Isaiah 45:23

IceMobster wrote:If Jesus is God, why did he pray to God (which is supported by Scripture on various places)?
Why does Jesus not say that he is God anywhere in the Scripture?

He did, did you not just read Isa 45:21,23 where is stated that only God can forgive sins and you have Jesus saying what in Luke 5:21,22,23?

Isa 43:11 reveals what?

Hosea 13:4 says what?

John 10:28-30 mentions what and now re-read Philippians 2:6-11 again and re-read the post concerning the example of the orange ..

You see,no one can accuse God of not knowing what it is like to be a human being. The fruit from God himself came down.

The question comes then, what do you you do with Jesus Ice?

Continue to be like like the those who put him on trial can sought his extermination for basphming the world's system?

Col 2:15, "When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him." NASB

IceMobster wrote:Bonus question: I have no idea what Holy Spirit's role is in either the Trinity or the world, so explain. I see HS as utterly useless. Even though I know it is obviously not the teaching of the Trinity, I see HS as just a name for God's work in the world. So, yeah, give me your best concerning this 3 questions.

Isa 63:10-11, But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them. 11 Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses. Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them

Look at Isa 48:12,16,17

God is speaking in these verses as the context describes

Isa 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last." NASB

Isa 48:16-17 "Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit." 17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you to profit, Who leads you in the way you should go." NASB


What did Jesus say in Rev 1:17,18 and Rev 1:8 and Rev 22:13 compare with Isa 41:4,

Jesus did declare who He is... and the bible plainly teaches who the Holy Spirit is.

God within the bible reveals the truth about the true nature of God' One essence...

You accuse that an orange can have distinctions within its own being, yet God cannot?

Again Ice, the question comes: what do you do with Jesus Ice?

Continue to be like the those who put him on trial can sought his extermination for blaspheming the world's system?

Col 2:15, "When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him." NASB

Isa 48:3 "I declared the former things long ago And they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them. Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass. 4 "Because I know that you are obstinate, And your neck is an iron sinew And your forehead bronze, 5 Therefore I declared them to you long ago, Before they took place I proclaimed them to you, So that you would not say, 'My idol has done them, And my graven image and my molten image have commanded them.' 6 "You have heard; look at all this. And you, will you not declare it? I proclaim to you new things from this time, Even hidden things which you have not known." NASB

Philippians 2:5-11

IceMobster wrote: Romans 1:20 reveal what exactly? You mean like there being named 3 things (invisible attributes, eternal power, divine nature) it points to a Triune God? Lol.

God is incomprehensible to us yet I see everyone talking of Him in a very leisure way as if He is their neighbour and they know everything about Him. But let's put that aside.

I've read your comparison once before and I didn't react to it because the comparison is incorrect. Not all parts of the orange share the same essence, attributes and function. It is simply not true. Furthermore, your comparison reduces and splits God into parts which is also incorrect.

Moreover, you conclude with: " but the reality is it is all 100 percent all one orange and our dissection cannot disprove that it is not all one orange either"

Well, of course it is one orange, but it has parts which serve different functions and which consists of different material and each of those parts of the orange (you named 3 of them) have different attributes.

Yeah, just now I've read that you said this example is weak. Well, I'll not accept something which is illogical to my thinking (HS being even worse than Jesus, though).

The zest, fruit and juice is there. In God. You do realize you could have put some 4th thing and, following your logic (well, not logic but thinking with which you tried to persuade me or explain it to me), it would be Fourthune God?

Reminds me of the: "Nice tryyyy, guyyyyyy." https://youtu.be/OelHPDBSiJg?t=1m43s

The delay is there up until I am certain God equals Trinity.

Isaiah 53:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 is only a work God himself can do so he sent forth from

Again Ice what will you do with Jesus, that is the question?

How long will you keep putting him on trial to exterminator him and exalt your own pride?

An Orange shares all the same attribute of being an orange. Differing parts of the orange all share the same function of the orange to keep life alive...

Now think for a moment:

The Father, all life flows

The Son outflows the life and creates...

The Holy Spirit establish and empowers life...

The three are one and you as Romans 1:20 reveals how, folks ignore the example of the tri-unity of being of living things around them and seek to continue to put God on trial, and continue to betray, mock, scoff, exalt their agendas, place on other burdens they cannot bear, look for spoil, divide others, seek after ruin, spit upon others, beat others down...etc...

You accuse that an orange can have distinctions within its own being, yet God cannot?

So Ice why do you continue to seek justifying doing these things to others, yourself, and God?

Again Ice, The question comes: what do you you do with Jesus?

Continue to be like the those who put him on trial can sought his extermination for blaspheming the world's system?

Col 2:15, "When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him." NASB

Here is how a made a public display

Isaiah 53:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12

Have courage and read these:

Mathew chapter 26 and chapter 27, Luke chapter 23 and chapter 24

John 3:15-21...
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swordfish7 wrote:The trinity is a foundational belief of Christianity and those who reject it can be argued to not be Christians for they are making a false God of there vain imagination. If you go back to church history, they were pretty strong on this point!

Where in scripture is believing in the Trinity a prerequisite for salvation, or being a Christian?

The Gospel according to John

Just as a coin has two sides,both valid,so Jesus Christ has two natures,both valid. Luke presents Christ in His humanity as the Son of Man; John portrays Him in His deity as the Son of God. John's purpose is crystal clear: to set forth Christ in His deity in order to spark believing faith in his readers.John's gospel is topical,not primarily chronological,and it revolves around seven miracles and seven "I Am" statements of Christ.Following an extended eyewitness description of the Upper Room meal and discourse,John records events leading up to the Resurrection,the final climactic proof that Jesus is who He claims to be - the Son of God.

abelcainsbrother wrote:The Gospel according to John

Just as a coin has two sides,both valid,so Jesus Christ has two natures,both valid. Luke presents Christ in His humanity as the Son of Man; John portrays Him in His deity as the Son of God. John's purpose is crystal clear: to set forth Christ in His deity in order to spark believing faith in his readers.John's gospel is topical,not primarily chronological,and it revolves around seven miracles and seven "I Am" statements of Christ.Following an extended eyewitness description of the Upper Room meal and discourse,John records events leading up to the Resurrection,the final climactic proof that Jesus is who He claims to be - the Son of God.

ACB,

I asked where scripture says that believing in the Trinity is a prerequisite for salvation. Your answer was about the deity of Christ, which is fine evidence if one has a problem with that part of the Trinity. But what if one believes Christ is God, but has an issue with the Holy Spirit being the third person? I just don't see that one has to believe the Holy Spirit is a person, in order to be saved. I think the doctrine of the Trinity is the best doctrine we have to explain the nature of God. But I don't think believing in it is necessary for salvation, as long as one has faith in the biblical Jesus. Fully God, and fully man.

But I also believe that since the Trinity is a good biblical doctrine, that if someone studies the doctrine with an open mind, and with prayer, they should be convinced that the Trinity is correct.

RickD wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:The Gospel according to John

Just as a coin has two sides,both valid,so Jesus Christ has two natures,both valid. Luke presents Christ in His humanity as the Son of Man; John portrays Him in His deity as the Son of God. John's purpose is crystal clear: to set forth Christ in His deity in order to spark believing faith in his readers.John's gospel is topical,not primarily chronological,and it revolves around seven miracles and seven "I Am" statements of Christ.Following an extended eyewitness description of the Upper Room meal and discourse,John records events leading up to the Resurrection,the final climactic proof that Jesus is who He claims to be - the Son of God.

ACB,

I asked where scripture says that believing in the Trinity is a prerequisite for salvation. Your answer was about the deity of Christ, which is fine evidence if one has a problem with that part of the Trinity. But what if one believes Christ is God, but has an issue with the Holy Spirit being the third person? I just don't see that one has to believe the Holy Spirit is a person, in order to be saved. I think the doctrine of the Trinity is the best doctrine we have to explain the nature of God. But I don't think believing in it is necessary for salvation, as long as one has faith in the biblical Jesus. Fully God, and fully man.

But I also believe that since the Trinity is a good biblical doctrine, that if someone studies the doctrine with an open mind, and with prayer, they should be convinced that the Trinity is correct.

First off I didn't know you were asking me but I posted that about the gospel of John based on what IceMobster and B.W. were discussing because IceMobster asked why we focus on John so much or something like that. I just believe the trinity is biblical and so if you claim to believe in Jesus and are saved you won't reject the trinity. False religions reject the trinity.I have had debates with Jehovah Witnesses about it before.

Without the trinity we Don't Have salvation. The trinity = God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit.

The virgin birth / the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and she conceived Jesus / both human and Divine. The divine part of Him died on the cross for our sins and rose from the dead bodily after 3 days.

The Holy Spirit is the part that comes to indwell the person at the instant of salvation. Ephesians 1:13 "In Him you also trusted , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." vs 14 " who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."
That Scripture - along with others -- says that once a person accepts Christ, the Holy Spirit indwells us and won't leave the person until we are safe with Jesus Christ. We inherit eternal life -- Christ redeemed us with His blood on the cross -- we become sons / daughters of God through Christ. Our inheritance is secured by the Holy Spirit residing in us. He won't leave us.
The Holy Spirit is Also our teacher -- He allows our understanding to take place. He's also our Comforter.
And the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, etc, etc. So these qualities will be apparent in the lives of believers. That's why that verse says 'by their fruits, we shall know them'.

So - it's not really a matter of believing in the Holy Spirit to be saved. But -- as has been stated -- without the Godhead / trinity / there is No Salvation.

Are we saved based upon belief in truth propositions, or believing in Christ?
Can on be have without the other?

Kurieuo wrote:Are we saved based upon belief in truth propositions, or believing in Christ?
Can on be have without the other?

We are not saved by our works but our faith in Jesus,but if a person is saved?I don't see how they could knowingly reject the truth of God's word. It is one thing to be a babe in Christ and be full of Jesus and yet not know much about the bible. I have been in church services,revivals,etc and have seen people who just got saved and you can look at them and see they are so full of Jesus and yet,because they are a new convert all they can do is say things like I am saved thank you Jesus,etc.

However once we start growing and learning more of God's word there should be a desire to understand the bible more and to want to know the truth. It does'nt seem right that a saved person would knowingly reject the truth of God's word. Now sure,not everybody is called to be a minister,preacher,etc but still the Holy Spirit leads us to the truth if we yield to it. It is one thing to be misled by some bad doctrine and not realize it,but to knowingly reject the truth of God's word? It is something I cannot do. "Let God be true and every man a liar."

I'm not sure whether you actually covered my questions ACB or just skirted around them. Let me add though, Christ said in the synoptics to let the children come to Him, that one must accept Christ like a child to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 19:13-14

• Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Luke 18:15-17

• 15And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. 16But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17“Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

Mark 10:13-15

• 13And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them. 14But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15“Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

Now, I can tell with my own children, they don't fully understand who Christ is, they don't get the Gospel really... I poke and prod them with questions so I know they're unclear on many things. Yet, I can tell my 8yo daughter is very open to God and fully loves Christ for some reason I can't explain.

Kurieuo wrote:I'm not sure whether you actually covered my questions ACB or just skirted around them. Let me add though, Christ said in the synoptics to let the children come to Him, that one must accept Christ like a child to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 19:13-14

• Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Luke 18:15-17

• 15And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. 16But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17“Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

Mark 10:13-15

• 13And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them. 14But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15“Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

Now, I can tell with my own children, they don't fully understand who Christ is, they don't get the Gospel really... I poke and prod them with questions so I know they're unclear on many things. Yet, I can tell my 8yo daughter is very open to God and fully loves Christ for some reason I can't explain.

That is just how I feel about it based on my understanding of God's word.I think it is great that you are teaching them about Jesus and the gospel,even if they can't fully understand it yet. Sounds good to me. You are permitting the little children to come to him,Jesus loves them more than we can imagine

Kurieuo wrote:Are we saved based upon belief in truth propositions, or believing in Christ?
Can on be have without the other?

We are saved by placing our trust in the person of Jesus Christ.

But if we knowingly reject what Scripture teaches about the person of Jesus Christ then the object of our faith/trust is not truly the person of Jesus Christ as revealed in Scripture.
So I do think that truth propositions about Jesus are important in understanding who Jesus is, what he did for us, and what we are trusting Jesus for.
And I think that Scripture and the illumination of the Holy Spirit are key to understanding who the person that we are placing our trust in really is.

In Christ

RickD wrote: Where in scripture is believing in the Trinity a prerequisite for salvation, or being a Christian?
...
But what if one believes Christ is God, but has an issue with the Holy Spirit being the third person? I just don't see that one has to believe the Holy Spirit is a person, in order to be saved.

These are two passages of Scripture that popped into my head when I read your post.

Matthew 12:30-32

30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Romans 8:9-11

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

In Christ

Kurieuo wrote:Are we saved based upon belief in truth propositions, or believing in Christ?
Can on be have without the other?

I don't see how we could have one without the other. We are saved through faith in Christ. And we need to know the truth about who Christ is, and what he's done, don't we?