Philip wrote:Nothing appeared suddenly Phil and no serious person studying these things would agree with you or think so, that is a strawman.
Then you need to read up upon what transpired and came into to being at the moment of the Big Bang beginning! This does not mean that things of greater complexity didn't slowly develop, all the while moving toward a planet that could support and sustain life. But there most certain WERE things that didn't previously, physically exist, that INSTANTLY appeared, and IMMEDIATELY operated with incredible precision. This is what science teaches!
And it is absurd to think God kick-started a universe He didn't precisely design and control the end results of - even IF He first created things that were designed to operate as programmed, and not with constant intervention. Although God clearly can and HAS directly overridden the usual way things work, across Scripture. As Paul agrees, WHATEVER the processes and WHATEVER the mechanisms, they are God-created. That's all that is truly important! And I don't care how many vast billions of galaxies there are, the variables and obstacles to life all have key, highly improbable parameters that must be achieved for them to produce and sustain life. God is spirit. The universe is NOT, and is material. He always has existed. The universe had a beginning that only He can explain. The pieces of the puzzle have to 1) be created/they must exist, and 2) they must be assembled and empowered. Some appear to have us believe that if only the pieces exist, life of some kind is inevitable. Either God set a process in motion that He PLANNED for but ONE unique creature, amongst millions of others, whom He would communicate and interact with, and one day come to die for. OR, He created things that "just happened" to culminate in man. The Bible clearly asserts the former!
Life didn't appear instantly Phil. Yes elements did when they fused in the big bang and later among stars. And for the idea of incredible precision, try the quantum level, at that place even the laws of physics get bent and crazy unpredictable things happen.
And it is absurd to think God kick-started a universe He didn't precisely design and control the end results of - even IF He first created things that were designed to operate as programmed, and not with constant intervention.
Not at all, it just depends on how do you perceive God that he might or might not do. Really to me this constant trying on your side to insert God at interventions, really undermines God in my opinion. It makes him petty and really not a good planner at all. It shows that he didn't foresee enough so that he'd have to intervene later to fix things or add a touch here or there. Really that is what irks me. I do not see God as that at all.
Although God clearly can and HAS directly overridden the usual way things work, across Scripture. As Paul agrees, WHATEVER the processes and WHATEVER the mechanisms, they are God-created.
Yes that is our belief...end of story. For a non-beleiver it's not clear why the Christian God should be the one creating it...really try to understand that please. It's not clear at all.
And I don't care how many vast billions of galaxies there are, the variables and obstacles to life all have key, highly improbable parameters that must be achieved for them to produce and sustain life.
You keep using words like improbable but they have zero effect really. The universe may not have a beginning at all either. The kalam argument might fail. But there are evidence like the paper I cited that things change Phil, they do. The process is not without promise either and it explains a lot.
Either God set a process in motion that He PLANNED for but ONE unique creature, amongst millions of others, whom He would communicate and interact with, and one day come to die for. OR, He created things that "just happened" to culminate in man. The Bible clearly asserts the former!
It also clearly asserts that everything was made in six days right there on page one of that same Bible, but obviously you don't accept it when it comes to that so not sure what you are doing...cherry picking I guess?
Either God set a process in motion that He PLANNED for but ONE unique creature, amongst millions of others
Phil take a telescope sometimes and look out in the universe, to observe the vastness that exists out there is a humbling experience. This self-congratulatory notion of being the center of everything is strange to me. That was the same thing people thought when they thought that everything revolved around the earth precisely because they thought they were the one special creature.
To me when I look out there I only wonder, but why God? And I think about that.
Here is my challenge to you, If we were so special and God chose and fine tuned this world for us to live in, to make it our little home. Then why is there so much physical mass and planets and suns and stars and novas and black holes and dark energy and matter out there? What function does that have? What is that for? God just accidently created a lot rather than just our little planet and the sun and moon and a few stars in the night sky? Because believe me that is all that it would take and it will be your perfect little universe. Sin, death, redemption all happening here. Really the end would come anyway so no space or star traveling is needed. God made us here and here the armageddon is happening and here the new Jerusalem is going to be, on this Earth, as you said, it clearly asserts everything is here...so why do you need 200 billion galaxies, trillions and trillions of uncountable stars and planets out there? what was God thinking when he made them? Not for just our amusement I hope because we won't be here for long anyway but the universe is brewing here for 14 billion years atleast and I wonder why. Why go to such lengths when all God was interested in creating was on earth and earth alone? If god would have intervened, the universe would have looked really different because there would be form and function and purpose. If you look now the Andromeda galaxy is racing towards our milky way, it's on a collision course. Is that an oversight by God? Or that's part of the perfect plan, the incredible precision? Becuase his unique creature is going to be obliterated in what would ensue. I am not sure what kind of plan is that. I really don't.
Like Jac said earlier, you can't have it both ways. You want God to intervene but you also want and affirm automated processes happeneing just the same.
So what is it? Is God a poor planner?...or I can say that he created the way any thinking wise being would create, automating things so that nature balances itself out so that everything has a start and end. E.g an earth that looks like a paradise but has devastating earthquakes and meteor impacts as well? Supernovas and birthing stars to black holes. A universe following the laws of physics on its own and shaping itself out of chaos into order and along the way we happened (God would obviously know about since he knows all). That is why there is so much out there, it has to be that way. Nothing else makes sense at all.
So why and how do you think that is?