Evidence for God from Science

Without form means a watery place. There is no solid form or structure to the earth. Your interpretation continues to miss that simple fact. You continue to deny that Jeremiah saw the earth without form, even though it says he did.

jalvarez4Jesus wrote:Without form means a watery place. There is no solid form or structure to the earth. Your interpretation continues to miss that simple fact. You continue to deny that Jeremiah saw the earth without form, even though it says he did.

Fine.

It could just be in the introductory sense, which would mean verse 2 is introducing a new and different narrative of the earth from verse 1. Thus, this different narrative would need to be temporally separated from verse 1. Otherwise, it's the same narrative if it's the same time describing the same place (earth). With this comes two options:

1. The new narrative begins before the creation (impossible)
2. The new narrative begins after the creation.

Thus, if it is in the introductory sense, and since both verses are talking about the same place, verse 2 must be talking about a future time from verse 1. And Jeremiah 4 would suggest that is the case. I think this option is much more simple.

Didn't read post. Could a mod merge this back with the other one? I doubt anybody wants to see the boards spammed with a bunch of gap threads.

Thank you

Sure they can merge it on. Not trying to be spammy.

Let's compare

Genesis 1:2 " And the earth was without form and void;and darkness was upon the face of the deep.And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Jeremiah 4:23 " I beheld the earth,and,lo, it was without form,and void; and the heavens,and they had no light."

It is describing the exact same thing we see in Genesis 1:2 and Jeremiah in Jeremiah 4 is telling Israel that just like God poured out judgment that caused Genesis 1:2 he can also pour out judgment on them. If you disagree? Then this must be a future prophecy yet if we read Jeremiah 4:23-28 for this to be a future prophecy and there is never a time in the future when there are no man on earth. God promised after Noah's flood he would never destroy all life off the earth again and yet you must say he will if you say this is a future prophecy. Therefore this is a prophecy looking back instead of forward and it is looking back to the world that perished completely before Genesis 1:2. We do find hominids for evidence also that there was a pre-Adamite race of beings similar to man as evidence.

Oh you two! Welcome to the board jalvarez, you'll soon find we all disagree on much, but by far we're in most agreement here that Gappists, well, likely wear alfoil hats and the like.

Once you get a bad start in something, be it in life or hermeneutics for example, it's almost impossible to get on the right track.

So the Holy Ghost can't guide someone with a bad start into all truth?

I think, what AreEl is getting at, what Jac is too in a manner, is the importance of sticking to a method of interpretation that anyone can follow if they understand the rules to such.

What many should do, is pick a hermeneutic, a method of interpretation. Stick to it when reading and interpreting Scripture, rather than going by more subjective feelings. Then, an interpretation will be more methodological and objective. Someone should be able to follow your logic, and see, "oh, I see how you reached that through the methods of interpretation you're employing."

Sadly, many Christians rush into Scripture, think they can pick up an English translation reading through their modern lens and that's it. Some will flip to this passage and that passage and claim the Holy Spirit has given them understanding or something such, when a passage is ripped entirely out of context.

Now, I'm not saying that an everyday reader can't pick up the Bible readily understand the main message. BUT, I am saying that to gain a richness and deepness of meaning and understanding one can study more closely, and when interpreting Scripture this means having a real method of interpreting.

I'd compare it to the natural world. Anyone can see and experience the beauty of nature and understand how certain things work through simply observing, but there is also a deeper understanding and richness that can be had when one applies their magnifying glass and studies a particular area.

So then, with Jeremiah 4, what is it that leads you to say it is speaking of Genesis 1? Are there other passages in Scripture that kind of point to this as a dual revelation of sorts akin the Messianic prophecy? I just don't see it. So, if you can muster up evidence to show how the writer and indeed audience of the day would have understood Jeremiah 4 as a lookback to Gen 1:2 -- then it'd require greater consideration on our part, those who disagree.

Kurieuo wrote:So then, with Jeremiah 4, what is it that leads you to say it is speaking of Genesis 1? Are there other passages in Scripture that kind of point to this as a dual revelation of sorts akin the Messianic prophecy? I just don't see it. So, if you can muster up evidence to show how the writer and indeed audience of the day would have understood Jeremiah 4 as a lookback to Gen 1:2 -- then it'd require greater consideration on our part, those who disagree.

Well, first of all, the Bible doesn't tell us that the way the original audience understood it is necessarily infallible. God's word and what it says is the standard, not the particular way the original audience interpreted it. We are never told in the Bible to preach the ancient culture and what they thought, but rather, "Preach the word" (2 Timothy 4:2). With that aside, here's why I'm convinced Jeremiah 4 is about Genesis 1:2.

When Genesis 1:2 speaks of the earth, it describes it as being "without form and void". The rest of the verse makes it clear the earth was a bunch of water. So, without form would mean that there was no solid structure or form to the surface of the earth. You couldn't stand on earth because it was without form. Void simply means empty. But keep this in mind: WITHOUT FORM = WATERY MASS (AKA, NO SOLID FORM OR LAND). Okay? Now when Jeremiah 4 says that Jeremiah saw the earth WITHOUT FORM, it must mean that he saw a watery mass. Notice the exact language, "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light." (Jeremiah 4:23). Jeremiah is clearly describing a vision for Israel. Israel (at the time of this statement) obviously wasn't a wasteland. Jeremiah is having a vision, he "beheld" things. Second, this cannot be a vision of the future devastation of Israel by Babylon. Babylon didn't flood the land of Israel with water so that it was WITHOUT FORM. This cannot be talking about Israel, not if it's literal anyways (which I think it clearly is literal). Third, the entire "earth" (contrasted with the heavens) is said to be WITHOUT FORM. Thus, Jeremiah is seeing the whole earth covered with water. There is only one place in recorded history when this was the case, Genesis 1:2, "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." The details are exactly the same between Jeremiah 4:23 and Genesis 1:2. This must be the event Jeremiah is describing. He was shown a vision by God of the state of the earth in Genesis 1:2. And since Jeremiah 4 makes it clear God judged the world to make it the way it was in Genesis 1:2, there must have been a judgement from God in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Why would God show Jeremiah the destruction He did in Genesis 1:2? To give the Israelites a clear example from their Old Testament (Genesis 1) of God's great power to destroy sinners. If He can flood the world to make it without form and void as He did in Genesis 1:2, He can surely judge the Israelites harshly for their sins.

jalvarez wrote:
And since Jeremiah 4 makes it clear God judged the world to make it the way it was in Genesis 1:2, there must have been a judgement from God in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

Where does Jeremiah 4 make this clear?

RickD wrote:

jalvarez wrote:
And since Jeremiah 4 makes it clear God judged the world to make it the way it was in Genesis 1:2, there must have been a judgement from God in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

Where does Jeremiah 4 make this clear?

Jeremiah 4 is crystal clear about this being God's judgment on the world, if that's what you're asking.
"I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger." (Jeremiah 4:26).

If you are asking about proof that Jeremiah 4 is about Genesis 1:2, I posted that already (directly above your post).

jalvarez4Jesus wrote:

RickD wrote:

jalvarez wrote:
And since Jeremiah 4 makes it clear God judged the world to make it the way it was in Genesis 1:2, there must have been a judgement from God in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

Where does Jeremiah 4 make this clear?

Jeremiah 4 is crystal clear about this being God's judgment on the world, if that's what you're asking.
"I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger." (Jeremiah 4:26).

If you are asking about proof that Jeremiah 4 is about Genesis 1:2, I posted that already (directly above your post).

You are ignoring the fact that the gap wasn't preached, otherwise, it would have been given much more space in the scriptures. It is not a doctrine that is affirmed by scripture, nor the prophets. Nor it was taught. Otherwise, Moses could have simply said...look..a gap. So could have Jeremiah or any other prophets. To them, there was no gap...BECAUSE IT MADE NO SENSE. The God they knew wasn't doing things in an arbitrary way. There was beauty in what he did. A single line gap was the worst possible offense on the aesthetics of the scriptures. It served no purpose, nor elaborated anything about God. Not to mention it created a gap(no pun intended) in the creation story which couldn't be filled by the authors. Things don't work like this. If you are not ready to consider the problems it would create for the authors then you are not giving this issue the attention it deserves.

And believe me, you should have considered the post on Hebrew and grammar which Jac made. Really, I am not sure how anyone can move around that.

I sympathize with you, I used to believe in the gap theory but after learning I let it go. Things just don't add up. There are bigger questions to ask.

jalvarez4Jesus wrote:

RickD wrote:

jalvarez wrote:
And since Jeremiah 4 makes it clear God judged the world to make it the way it was in Genesis 1:2, there must have been a judgement from God in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

Where does Jeremiah 4 make this clear?

Jeremiah 4 is crystal clear about this being God's judgment on the world, if that's what you're asking.
"I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger." (Jeremiah 4:26).

If you are asking about proof that Jeremiah 4 is about Genesis 1:2, I posted that already (directly above your post).

Not true - is about ancient people human beings in Israel in Judah and Jerusalem. no mention of people, human beings ever existing pre-gap time, yet the context is plain. Human beings existing an in all places in Judah and Jerusalem before the Gap and were created before God said man was. Wow that is a stretch...

Jer 4:3 For thus says the LORD to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem, "Break up your fallow ground, And do not sow among thorns.
Jer 4:4 "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD And remove the foreskins of your heart, Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Or else My wrath will go forth like fire And burn with none to quench it, Because of the evil of your deeds."
Jer 4:5 Declare in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem, and say, "Blow the trumpet in the land; Cry aloud and say, 'Assemble yourselves, and let us go Into the fortified cities.'
Jer 4:6 "Lift up a standard toward Zion! Seek refuge, do not stand still, For I am bringing evil from the north, And great destruction. NASB

That is the context - and notice these verses: Isa 24:19-23; Eze32:7-8; Joel 2:10, Joel 2:30-31, Joel 3:15-16; Amos 8:9; Mat 24:29,35; Mark 13:24-25; Luke 21:25-26; Acts 2:19-20 about end time events too.

Notice Verse 28 which is after verse 26...

Jer 4:26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.
Jer 4:27 For thus says the LORD, "The whole land shall be a desolation, Yet I will not execute a complete destruction.
Jer 4:28 "For this the earth shall mourn And the heavens above be dark, Because I have spoken, I have purposed, And I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it."

Look at the underlined part and notice that this is not about a pre-adamic world for if it really was God would have used other words like - I destroyed it when I spoken and did not change my mind... ie using past tense and not future tenses.

Next:

Quoted from the Summarized Bible Below

Jeremiah 4:1-31

Contents: Jeremiah’s second message, continued. Warning of the consequences of sin and exhortation to return to God.
Characters: God, Jeremiah.

Conclusion: It is the evil of men’s doings that kindles the fires of God’s wrath against them and brings destruction upon the land. That which is to be before He moves, which makes a way of escape for those who will sincerely turn to Him and receive His mercy.

Dreaded above everything else is the wrath of God, but God always warns

Key Word: Desolations, Jer 4:7.
Strong Verses: Jer 4:22.

I feel like Jac now...

Best I can do is for anyone coming to this post thread and see the error of using this chapter to support Gap theory... and come to his or her own conclusions...
-
-
-