Evidence for God from Science

A person Does need to have the ability to understand right from wrong. Young children who haven't gotten to that level of maturity and those who not able to understand due to mental impairment would qualify. But there Are children as young as 5 yrs old who Have understood and Have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. So - it's Also up to the parent to start teaching their children about salvation early on. There is the verse that tells parents to 'train up their children in the way they should go .....' Teach your children about God / His Word.

You might be surprised at the methods God uses to reach the 'back woods' people with His Word -- foreign missionaries -- people who go to other needy countries with the Gospel. For instance in Haiti -- countries where people go as teachers -- etc -- health workers and share Gospel in That way. And places where the 'underground' church is alive -- people are accepting Christ. Places like Togo , West Africa -- bush tribes -- some have heard Gospel for 1st time and eagerly accept and some others hear and reject.

God's Word tells us that there is but One Way to escape hell -- and One Way to be acceptable for heaven. Jesus Christ is the Son of God --His death with our sins upon Him, His bodily resurrection -- going to hell In Our Place and come Back -- believing in our heart accepting in our heart / thanking God in Jesus name.

One should not assume that those without the Gospel cannot EVER have it provided to them, GIVEN THE RIGHT OPEN HEART, MIND AND DESIRE TOWARDS GOD. Because it is entirely possible that the very reason they do not have it has to do with their heart and attitude's permanent resistance and rejection of God. And BEFORE they were ever born God intimately has ALWAYS known of all those with such determined resistance that would never change, regardless of whatever detailed level of information about Himself He could provide them. For others, He may well provide knowledge of the Gospel supernaturally, and in ways we may not necessarily see. Clearly, as to what I am saying, God has these abilities. Assignments of time and place of all humans were made in conjunction with His complete knowledge of the life-ending beliefs, actions and hearts of all people, everywhere!

crochet1949 wrote:A person Does need to have the ability to understand right from wrong. Young children who haven't gotten to that level of maturity and those who not able to understand due to mental impairment would qualify.

What about people who know right from wrong, and they choose to do right; but they spent their entire lives without ever hearing about the God of Christianity?

Ken

Kenny wrote:

Kenny wrote: If not, is it fair to punish someone who didn't have a chance...

Ken

B. W. wrote: I will answer your questions with questions: Have you ever lied, hurt another person Ken, falsely accused another, attempted to entrap someone with baited questions?

Ever abandoned, rejected someone, verbally hurt another feelings, stolen things like a persons trust or even stolen some sort of possessions another owns?

Ever schemed to bring low another person in order to exalt yourself in some manner above others? Look with lustful fantasy at another? Who have you betrayed? Have you ever turned your back on those in need?

Let me put it this way; I am as corrupt, and as honest, and as wicked, and as kind, as you are. Have you done any of those things? (I think you have your answer)

I was worse. In my ignorance, like you, I refused to honestly with integrity even look into what Christianity actually teaches and sought like you to discredit it at every turn.

Then God, by His Grace kept after me showing I need to be forgiven of all things I have ever done and the need to live a changed life out of darkness by him holding my hand.

I saw through the message of cross whom I betrayed, neglected, abandoned, put of trial, tempted to ensnare, to control, use, rejected, hurt, broken hearts, destroyed faith in others, and my need to be released from the ignorance that bound me to that lifestyle which enslaved me.

I saw by the power of the Resurrection of Jesus, that I too can be resurrected out from the bondage of my old ways, not by what I can do but rather the Lord God residing in me, empowering me to step out of such darkness.

I am free now and never desire to return to the lifestyle of ignorance that you so far have chosen. I am not the same person I once was. I do not do those things that I once did because I am free and now help others, like yourself find freedom from living an ignorant wasted life without purpose or hope.

I found Jesus Christ more than able to keep his word because he is alive and still goes about changing folks from their personal worlds of ignorant darkness. He will do so for you, Ken... Just reach back to him. Stop trying so hard to defend your own ignorance as the superior way to live. reach out through Prayer and ask Him to forgive you of all your sins and then your will discover proof - He is alive!

Kenny wrote:

B. W. wrote: Romans 3:23, ...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...

Rom 3:10, ...as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE...

Isaiah 26:10, Though the wicked is shown favor, He does not learn righteousness; He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD.

How unjustly are you dealing with us here, right now? And you expect to skate into heaven and corrupt it with your lifestyle? If God did, then he would not be absolutely just...

Skate into Heaven? Remember who you are talking to; I don't believe in Heaven; remember? But you do, so if anyone intends to do any skating into Heaven, between the two of us that would be you. This question I am asking has nothing to do with me, I'm talking about someone who never heard of christianity.

You are ignorant and your own question is about those ignorant therefore you answered your own question: You don't believe in heaven but rather the superiority of ignorance.

It is by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, which, I helped to shed, whom I also vicariously put Jesus on the cross and put him on trial vicariously just like you are doing now, that by this shed blood cleansed me from shame of doing so and shown me how, what God’s Love went through to open the door to heaven to me.

I do not deserve heaven, nor any human being does. However, God reached to humanity while humanity rejects and chooses ignorance as their best defense. In this reaching, The Lord shows humanity by a profound act that gives clarity to the human condition, defining what sin really is, so those from amongst humanity can be forgiven, healed, set free, released from those things that hold one in their personal prison, and then teaches how to live a new way not bound to the ignorance you, Ken, try so hard to defend.

God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him shall not perish but have life abundant... John 3:16 quoted from memory.

The design of your layered questions, as well as your comment above, mocks God's love reaching out to you because you are choosing to remain ignorant of who Jesus Christ is and what He has done; therefore, your own question indeed applies directly to you.

Kenny wrote:

Kenny wrote: ...If so; wouldn't it be better to allow as many to remain ignorant in order to get as many in heaven as possible?

Ken

B. W. wrote: -No- none are ignorant except the unborn and little children whose minds have not developed with full moral reasoning -

None are ignorant? Consider a person born, lived, and died in in West Africa back in the 14th century. The only God he knew of was Amma; he never heard of Jesus, Yahweh, the Holy Spirit, the BIble, or anything remotely related to Christianity. How can you say this person is not ignorant of the Gospel?

Ken

They seen the world around them and thus denied the creator. God in his foresight foreknew such folks would never accept him as well as God foreknows who in their progeny line in the future would not reject him. Therefore, he places people in the scheme of time accordingly with no injustice to anyone.

That is what the bible summarizes on this matter Kenny, the bible you are ignorant of.

Where?

Acts 17:22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34

Romans 1:20

Job 34:12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23

God knows the final answer of your heart too Kenny. I do not.

From the evidence, you are here and we present the gospel to free you of your slavery to ignorance and its fruit.

You are free to accept His offer to forgive and release you or not. God is just, way beyond what you are anyone can concoct to prove that he isn't. He already foreknew the final choice everyone will ever make and thus rightly places each person in the scheme of time accordingly. Refining the dross out from the gold so a new day arises free from sin, death, sin...

God offers a free choice too all people, despite His own foreknowing what the final result will be. He offers to all in various ways, but like you, many choose freely to create justifications according to their own images and likeness to justify the ignorance of continuing a life bound to sins and teaching others it is okay to live that way.

You cannot prove such person in West Africa back in the 14th century is innocent. History and archaeology disproves such notions outright. History of Humanity is a vile one only with a brief respite here and there granted by God so humanity would not go extinct or remain lost always choosing corruption to reign by.

Romans 3:23, ...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...

Rom 3:10, ...as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE...

Isaiah 26:10, Though the wicked is shown favor, He does not learn righteousness; He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD.

Job 28:12,13, But where can wisdom be found? And where is the place of understanding? Man does not know its value, Nor is it found in the land of the living.

All Verses quoted from the NASB
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B. W. wrote:They seen the world around them and thus denied the creator. God in his foresight foreknew such folks would never accept him as well as God foreknows who in their progeny line in the future would not reject him. Therefore, he places people in the scheme of time accordingly with no injustice to anyone.

That is what the bible summarizes on this matter Kenny, the bible you are ignorant of.

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So if I understand you correctly, God knew the person in my scenario would have rejected him anyway so God allowed him to live in a time and place where he had no chance of accepting him anyway? If that is the case, kinda makes you wonder why he would give me and others like me a chance even though he knew in foresight we would reject him anyway. Anyway, thanks for answering my question

Ken

So if I understand you correctly, God knew the person in my scenario would have rejected him anyway so God allowed him to live in a time and place where he had no chance of accepting him anyway? If that is the case, kinda makes you wonder why he would give me and others like me a chance even though he knew in foresight we would reject him anyway. Anyway, thanks for answering my question

Ken, you are not paying close attention! From OUR understandings, you and every unbeliever DO have a chance. Actually, for you, it is playing out right now. All you've been made aware of from this forum IS your chance - or at least a big part of it. And so WE have no idea whether you will come to faith or not. So, ONLY from God's eternal view and perfect knowledge of the future, can HE determine whether your chance will be wasted upon unbelief and eternal isolation from God - a horrible thought, beyond what we can conceive! But for those who will NEVER have faith, they will likewise have rejected their opportunity to embrace the Lord. At the very least, people should be open to what God might open their eyes to, about Himself. That also means truly opening one's mind and not having pre-conceived notions as to what He might show you looks like.

I think that the reason God makes people aware of His existence is BECAUSE He is fair, loving and reasonable. Because you, nor anyone else, IF they permanently reject God, will ever have any excuse (Romans 1:20). Again, the INITIAL chance for those without EVER hearing or knowing of the Gospel will not be coming into contact with anything but basic understandings that 1) He exists and 2) a basic understanding of one's own sins. So, that gives the understandings that could at least be responded to - by WANTING to know more about God, being grateful to Him, and in being sorry to Him for what one's sins are. If ANYONE will at least respond positively to those basics (or their CHANCE), God will show them more - and all the way to salvation - IF they are willing to be led, listen and obey His "voice." But God clearly knows all for whom will NEVER positively RESPOND to God's initial enlightening. And He knows exactly what level of wooing and prodding an individual man needs, excepting FORCED compliance. And He will match the required level for each (which is different for each). But God knows hearts and he knows unsubstantiated excuses. So, unbelievers need to be ruthlessly honest with themselves over the WHYs of their unbelief. And they should - at least as an unknown experiement (at least unknown by anyone but themself) - ask God, "If you are there and exist, SHOW me what I truly need to know to believe!" Because IF that prayer is sincere and one truly wants to know the truth of the matter, HE HEAR IT AND WILL SHOW THEM!

So, Ken, and other unbelievers reading this, have you done the above suggested experiment? Because if you are merely trying to figure out if God exists, with only YOUR OWN flawed sensibilities and expectations, you will likely eternally die in them!

Kenny wrote:

B. W. wrote:They seen the world around them and thus denied the creator. God in his foresight foreknew such folks would never accept him as well as God foreknows who in their progeny line in the future would not reject him. Therefore, he places people in the scheme of time accordingly with no injustice to anyone.

That is what the bible summarizes on this matter Kenny, the bible you are ignorant of.

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So if I understand you correctly, God knew the person in my scenario would have rejected him anyway so God allowed him to live in a time and place where he had no chance of accepting him anyway? If that is the case, kinda makes you wonder why he would give me and others like me a chance even though he knew in foresight we would reject him anyway. Anyway, thanks for answering my question

Ken

Phillip gave the same answer as I would have to you...

Fact is, Ken and all unbelievers do indeed all have a choice and God offers that even to those who never heard just as Romans 1:20 mentions.

Ps 139:2.3,4,5,6 and Isa 40:13,14 show God is omniscient. Since He is, how could God not know the final result one makes? It is still your choice - God does not force one person to become saved nor does He make another unsaved, lost, to be sent to the doom of eternal recompense. People send themselves there.

How could God be guilty, as you suggest if the choice is yours to make alone?

Because he foreknew the final outcome that one will not accept him and thus moves things along so future progeny that will accept His salvation and cleansing can: how is that wrong?

You see Ken, people use the excuse of ignorance as you just did in this post to justify their choice to reject God's revelation of salvation and change.

Evidence is that God is knocking on your heart's door presenting you with another chance and what do you do? Bat it away using your own ignorance about God to keep you from seeing truth.

Philip wrote this like it is:

Philip wrote:Ken, you are not paying close attention! From OUR understandings, you and every unbeliever DO have a chance. Actually, for you, it is playing out right now. All you've been made aware of from this forum IS your chance - or at least a big part of it. And so WE have no idea whether you will come to faith or not. So, ONLY from God's eternal view and perfect knowledge of the future, can HE determine whether your chance will be wasted upon unbelief and eternal isolation from God - a horrible thought, beyond what we can conceive! But for those who will NEVER have faith, they will likewise have rejected their opportunity to embrace the Lord. At the very least, people should be open to what God might open their eyes to, about Himself. That also means truly opening one's mind and not having pre-conceived notions as to what He might show you looks like.

I think that the reason God makes people aware of His existence is BECAUSE He is fair, loving and reasonable. Because you, nor anyone else, IF they permanently reject God, will ever have any excuse (Romans 1:20). Again, the INITIAL chance for those without EVER hearing or knowing of the Gospel will not be coming into contact with anything but basic understandings that 1) He exists and 2) a basic understanding of one's own sins. So, that gives the understandings that could at least be responded to - by WANTING to know more about God, being grateful to Him, and in being sorry to Him for what one's sins are. If ANYONE will at least respond positively to those basics (or their CHANCE), God will show them more - and all the way to salvation - IF they are willing to be led, listen and obey His "voice." But God clearly knows all for whom will NEVER positively RESPOND to God's initial enlightening. And He knows exactly what level of wooing and prodding an individual man needs, excepting FORCED compliance. And He will match the required level for each (which is different for each). But God knows hearts and he knows unsubstantiated excuses. So, unbelievers need to be ruthlessly honest with themselves over the WHYs of their unbelief. And they should - at least as an unknown experiement (at least unknown by anyone but themself) - ask God, "If you are there and exist, SHOW me what I truly need to know to believe!" Because IF that prayer is sincere and one truly wants to know the truth of the matter, HE HEAR IT AND WILL SHOW THEM!

So, Ken, and other unbelievers reading this, have you done the above suggested experiment? Because if you are merely trying to figure out if God exists, with only YOUR OWN flawed sensibilities and expectations, you will likely eternally die in them!

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B. W. wrote:

Kenny wrote:

B. W. wrote:They seen the world around them and thus denied the creator. God in his foresight foreknew such folks would never accept him as well as God foreknows who in their progeny line in the future would not reject him. Therefore, he places people in the scheme of time accordingly with no injustice to anyone.

That is what the bible summarizes on this matter Kenny, the bible you are ignorant of.

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So if I understand you correctly, God knew the person in my scenario would have rejected him anyway so God allowed him to live in a time and place where he had no chance of accepting him anyway? If that is the case, kinda makes you wonder why he would give me and others like me a chance even though he knew in foresight we would reject him anyway. Anyway, thanks for answering my question

Ken

Phillip gave the same answer as I would have to you...

Fact is, Ken and all unbelievers do indeed all have a choice and God offers that even to those who never heard just as Romans 1:20 mentions.

Ps 139:2.3,4,5,6 and Isa 40:13,14 show God is omniscient. Since He is, how could God not know the final result one makes? It is still your choice - God does not force one person to become saved nor does He make another unsaved, lost, to be sent to the doom of eternal recompense. People send themselves there.

How could God be guilty, as you suggest if the choice is yours to make alone?

Because he foreknew the final outcome that one will not accept him and thus moves things along so future progeny that will accept His salvation and cleansing can: how is that wrong?

You see Ken, people use the excuse of ignorance as you just did in this post to justify their choice to reject God's revelation of salvation and change.

Evidence is that God is knocking on your heart's door presenting you with another chance and what do you do? Bat it away using your own ignorance about God to keep you from seeing truth.

Philip wrote this like it is:

Philip wrote:Ken, you are not paying close attention! From OUR understandings, you and every unbeliever DO have a chance. Actually, for you, it is playing out right now. All you've been made aware of from this forum IS your chance - or at least a big part of it. And so WE have no idea whether you will come to faith or not. So, ONLY from God's eternal view and perfect knowledge of the future, can HE determine whether your chance will be wasted upon unbelief and eternal isolation from God - a horrible thought, beyond what we can conceive! But for those who will NEVER have faith, they will likewise have rejected their opportunity to embrace the Lord. At the very least, people should be open to what God might open their eyes to, about Himself. That also means truly opening one's mind and not having pre-conceived notions as to what He might show you looks like.

I think that the reason God makes people aware of His existence is BECAUSE He is fair, loving and reasonable. Because you, nor anyone else, IF they permanently reject God, will ever have any excuse (Romans 1:20). Again, the INITIAL chance for those without EVER hearing or knowing of the Gospel will not be coming into contact with anything but basic understandings that 1) He exists and 2) a basic understanding of one's own sins. So, that gives the understandings that could at least be responded to - by WANTING to know more about God, being grateful to Him, and in being sorry to Him for what one's sins are. If ANYONE will at least respond positively to those basics (or their CHANCE), God will show them more - and all the way to salvation - IF they are willing to be led, listen and obey His "voice." But God clearly knows all for whom will NEVER positively RESPOND to God's initial enlightening. And He knows exactly what level of wooing and prodding an individual man needs, excepting FORCED compliance. And He will match the required level for each (which is different for each). But God knows hearts and he knows unsubstantiated excuses. So, unbelievers need to be ruthlessly honest with themselves over the WHYs of their unbelief. And they should - at least as an unknown experiement (at least unknown by anyone but themself) - ask God, "If you are there and exist, SHOW me what I truly need to know to believe!" Because IF that prayer is sincere and one truly wants to know the truth of the matter, HE HEAR IT AND WILL SHOW THEM!

So, Ken, and other unbelievers reading this, have you done the above suggested experiment? Because if you are merely trying to figure out if God exists, with only YOUR OWN flawed sensibilities and expectations, you will likely eternally die in them!

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Both you and Philip have completely misunderstood what I said. But that’s okay; my question was answered anyway.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:A person Does need to have the ability to understand right from wrong. Young children who haven't gotten to that level of maturity and those who not able to understand due to mental impairment would qualify.

What about people who know right from wrong, and they choose to do right; but they spent their entire lives without ever hearing about the God of Christianity?

Ken

God has all-knowledge --- there is no one alive who God is not aware of. No one is going to accidentally live their entire life and miss out on hearing about the God of Christianity and not have an opportunity to accept Him as their personal Savior.

crochet1949 wrote:

Kenny wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:A person Does need to have the ability to understand right from wrong. Young children who haven't gotten to that level of maturity and those who not able to understand due to mental impairment would qualify.

What about people who know right from wrong, and they choose to do right; but they spent their entire lives without ever hearing about the God of Christianity?

Ken

God has all-knowledge --- there is no one alive who God is not aware of. No one is going to accidentally live their entire life and miss out on hearing about the God of Christianity and not have an opportunity to accept Him as their personal Savior.

But countless people already have! Like the person in the scenario I provided; for example.

Ken

"They are without excuse." Rom 1:20

You don't have to like it or even agree with it, Kenny. But that's what the text says. Part of being a Christian is believing the text.

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:If the bible is true then there is no way any people on earth have not heard of God,they have forgot about him,etc to be able to say they never heard of the God of the bible,plus God can send angels to give people messages no matter where they live,and take like the burning bush in which God communicated with Moses,and God can give dreams and visions.So nobody can say nobody has heard and so it would be cruel for God to send them to hell for not knowing.

Consider the example of a person who was born, lived, and died, in a village in 14th century west Africa; long before the transatlantic slave trade when Christianity was introduced to the people who lived there via slavery. The only idea of God he knows of is Amma; a non Christian God. How could such a person attain knowledge of Jesus?

Ken

I realize you don't believe the bible and so overlook that all people and races were created by God so nobody can say they never knew the God of the bible.But even in your case here a 14th century person the same thing applies but since you don't believe the bible you reject the ways God can get messages to people and you cannot know God did not send a message to them and they rejected it. Even in the bible people can reject the message God sent them.This is fool proof if you believe the bible,but you don't so it seems like God did not do anything,but it is just your assumption.

If we read our bible and believe it God sent messages to people many different ways and yet you somehow think God cannot do that stuff anymore.I gave you examples of ways and if a person believes the bible it doesn't take much faith to believe he can still get messages to people,it is only when a person does not believe the bible.It is true it does not take much faith to believe the bible if you believe in God.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:If the bible is true then there is no way any people on earth have not heard of God,they have forgot about him,etc to be able to say they never heard of the God of the bible,plus God can send angels to give people messages no matter where they live,and take like the burning bush in which God communicated with Moses,and God can give dreams and visions.So nobody can say nobody has heard and so it would be cruel for God to send them to hell for not knowing.

Consider the example of a person who was born, lived, and died, in a village in 14th century west Africa; long before the transatlantic slave trade when Christianity was introduced to the people who lived there via slavery. The only idea of God he knows of is Amma; a non Christian God. How could such a person attain knowledge of Jesus?

Ken

I realize you don't believe the bible and so overlook that all people and races were created by God so nobody can say they never knew the God of the bible.But even in your case here a 14th century person the same thing applies but since you don't believe the bible you reject the ways God can get messages to people and you cannot know God did not send a message to them and they rejected it. Even in the bible people can reject the message God sent them.This is fool proof if you believe the bible,but you don't so it seems like God did not do anything,but it is just your assumption.

This entire thread has never been about what I believe, I'm trying to find out what YOU believe. How do you suppose God got his message to this 14th century West African?

Ken

There is the message of "righteouness" ( for lack of a better word), of doing what is right and the Gospel, which is a message of salvation.
Throughout history, we see evidence of the message of "what is right", natural law if you will.
That innate sense of "fair" or sense of doing "good" and while it can be perverted and made subjective, all humans have always had ( barring developmental issues) an innate sense that there is a right and wrong.

That is the first step to understanding how God communicates with all.

PaulSacramento wrote:There is the message of "righteouness" ( for lack of a better word), of doing what is right and the Gospel, which is a message of salvation.
Throughout history, we see evidence of the message of "what is right", natural law if you will.
That innate sense of "fair" or sense of doing "good" and while it can be perverted and made subjective, all humans have always had ( barring developmental issues) an innate sense that there is a right and wrong.

And throughout history, that sense of what is right or wrong has always been in a constant state of change, and if the past is any indication of the future, this sense of right and wrong will continue to change. Do you agree? Or do I need to provide examples to make my point.

Ken