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Re: Is God responsible?
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:40 pm
by 1over137
hana is me and my friend is john
Re: Is God responsible?
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:13 am
by PaulSacramento
Kenny wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:Kenny wrote:Nessa wrote:Atheists, agnostics...
If there was a God, would He be responsible for your lack of faith in Him?
If we assume God exists
and he wants us to know he exists, then I would say he is to blame for whatever non-belief one might have. However if God exists, I would not assume he wants us to know he exists because of how well he has remained hidden; thus there would be no blame because it is all by design.
Ken
Perhaps you meant to write:
I would not assume he wants us to know he exists because of how well he has
APPEARED TO remained hidden
TO SOME; thus there would be no blame because it is all by design
Naaw I meant it the way I wrote it. Your response is the way a typical theist would respond; mine is the way a typical atheist would respond. I think Nessa was clear she was looking for an atheists/agnostic perspective.
Ken
Fair enough, just that most atheist/agnostic's I know don't make absolute statements, so...
Re: Is God responsible?
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:54 am
by Kenny
PaulSacramento wrote:Kenny wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:Kenny wrote:Nessa wrote:Atheists, agnostics...
If there was a God, would He be responsible for your lack of faith in Him?
If we assume God exists
and he wants us to know he exists, then I would say he is to blame for whatever non-belief one might have. However if God exists, I would not assume he wants us to know he exists because of how well he has remained hidden; thus there would be no blame because it is all by design.
Ken
Perhaps you meant to write:
I would not assume he wants us to know he exists because of how well he has
APPEARED TO remained hidden
TO SOME; thus there would be no blame because it is all by design
Naaw I meant it the way I wrote it. Your response is the way a typical theist would respond; mine is the way a typical atheist would respond. I think Nessa was clear she was looking for an atheists/agnostic perspective.
Ken
Fair enough, just that most atheist/agnostic's I know don't make absolute statements, so...
though I have been known to make absolute statements from time to time, on this occasion I was just expressing a personal opinion; I don't think it qualifies as an absolute statement.
Ken
Re: Is God responsible?
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:58 am
by PaulSacramento
Just kidding Ken, hence the wink.
Re: Is God responsible?
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:59 am
by Kenny
1over137 wrote:hana is me and my friend is john
Okay, now it all makes sense. What you said made a lot of sense, and John just totally dismissed your reality based on his opinion. From my experience, such discussions generally don't get very far.
Ken
Re: Is God responsible?
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:38 am
by 1over137
Kenny wrote:1over137 wrote:hana is me and my friend is john
Okay, now it all makes sense. What you said made a lot of sense, and John just totally dismissed your reality based on his opinion. From my experience, such discussions generally don't get very far.
Ken
Ken,
we chatted on and on...
Hana: So, God have not made me to see that it is offered to me.
John: No, it isn’t his job to make us believe. He doesn’t “make” anyone believe. He does give freedom from the choices we make that enslave us. But that freedom only sets up the circumstances which enable us to make a choice. Perhaps my writing you is part of God’s plan to enable to understand God’s ways and offers to you so that you will want to choose him over rejecting him. Don’t expect him to somehow force you. He presents the case for his love and forgiveness and offers eternal life to all who come to him in faith. Asking him for it is key. If you really want faith, he has given you lots of things that require faith to activate. But without faith, you will not be able to “see” and “ask”. It will seem like foolishness to you. But, “the foolishness of God is wiser then the wisdom of Man”.
and the chat went on and on. Precisely, we wrote more than 100 pages that we wrote a book from and plan to publish.
So, the above is copyrighted material. No permission to distribute...
Ken, God was drawing me all the time. He continues to be with me when being Christian. He is my rock esp. during times of great suffering.
Re: Is God responsible?
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:43 am
by Philip
He presents the case for his love and forgiveness and offers eternal life to all who come to him in faith. Asking him for it is key. If you really want faith, he has given you lots of things that require faith to activate. But without faith, you will not be able to “see” and “ask”. It will seem like foolishness to you. But, “the foolishness of God is wiser then the wisdom of Man”.
A lot of wisdom above! What Jesus did on the cross is God's ultimate expression of His love! And not only was this witnesses, but his little band of the (remaining) 11 disciples KNEW the truth of the Resurrection, KNEW whether or not the saw their risen Lord, and thus these trembling, fearful men, their leader SEEMINGLY having been put to a humiliating death, post the Resurrection, very boldly preached that as a historical fact that they had witnesses - to the point that they all gladly risked the very same fate (of being killed for preaching about Jesus/His Resurrection). Nothing accounts for this. And they change the world through this Gospel. And all but one of the original disciples DID go to their deaths for this. NONE of that makes since, if they had realized that Jesus had only been a deluded lunatic that pointlessly got Himself ruthlessly tortured and killed. So God's love cannot be mistaken, if you know of the Crucifixion story.
So, you know of God's love. Hana's friend, John: "Asking him for it is key. If you really want faith, he has given you lots of things that require faith to activate. But without faith, you will not be able to “see” and “ask”. And so if one has NOT sincerely done this - has not ASKED God to show you the truth about Himself/Jesus/the Gospel, I would deem such a person insincere in wanting to find out. Why would someone not do so???!!! In fact, I would think, one so insistent that there is no God, would want to prove it to himself, if just as a private experiment. But if one is unwilling to accept God as HE IS, or unwilling to seek Him, these are signs that one is avoiding Him and determined to never believe, and are going to block any truths about God you might could otherwise recognize or be given. In God's view, people will receive enough to believe - whatever level that might take, per what each person truly needs to have.
So, to those unbelievers reading this, I ask:
A) Have you ever asked God to reveal Himself to you, of His existence and more?
B) And IF you asked God (A above), did you REALLY want to know, no matter what He's like, even if He differs in ways that you wouldn't have expected? Remember, God's reality doesn't change based upon our feelings or perceptions. He is Who He is - and not how you might desire Him to be.
C) If you haven't done A and B above,
WHY not???!!!
D) As Hana's friend explained, the key to discerning God's existence and exactly WHO He is, is NOT a mere matter ONLY of one's intellect. And THAT, my friends, may well be your problem. Is you may well think that ONLY your OWN reasoning and discernment about the issue of God's existence is adequate to your understandings! And so
WHO is the real problem here, amongst unbelievers reading this?
Re: Is God responsible?
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:35 am
by Audie
Philip wrote:
So, to those unbelievers reading this, I ask:
A) Have you ever asked God to reveal Himself to you, of His existence and more?
B) And IF you asked God (A above), did you REALLY want to know, no matter what He's like, even if He differs in ways that you wouldn't have expected? Remember, God's reality doesn't change based upon our feelings or perceptions. He is Who He is - and not how you might desire Him to be.
C) If you haven't done A and B above, WHY not???!!!
D) And so WHO is the real problem here, amongst unbelievers reading this?
Having in my heart the faith of one I deeply respected, a Catholic actually,
I did call out, ask as per above.
I think there is some sort of catch 22 involved here.
"Who" is the real problem is a false question.
Re: Is God responsible?
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:02 am
by PaulSacramento
I know only a few atheist that have become believers, though I know OF many more that have.
The ones I know have come to God via personal revelation ( The Hear Him), by reason and logic.
Much the same reasons that some believers become atheist ( they DON'T hear Him) by reason and logic.
As one that was never an atheist BUT was, quite honestly more agnostic, I tried to come to God in a few different ways but the truth was that I didn't want to, I had too many issues with this supposed God that care so little and that wouldn't give me a sign ( How dare He ignore me !).
I came to Christ via personal revelation ( at a time where I couldn't be any more humble and was, for the first time ever, truly open to hearing Him) and I STAYED a Christian via reason and logic.
I can say, honestly, that I fully understand why I never heard Him when I was too busy listening to the sound of my own voice, pointing out how He didn't deserve me.
Re: Is God responsible?
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:49 am
by Kenny
Philip wrote:
So, to those unbelievers reading this, I ask:
A) Have you ever asked God to reveal Himself to you, of His existence and more?
B) And IF you asked God (A above), did you REALLY want to know, no matter what He's like, even if He differs in ways that you wouldn't have expected? Remember, God's reality doesn't change based upon our feelings or perceptions. He is Who He is - and not how you might desire Him to be.
C) If you haven't done A and B above, WHY not???!!!
D) As Hana's friend explained, the key to discerning God's existence and exactly WHO He is, is NOT a mere matter ONLY of one's intellect. And THAT, my friends, may well be your problem. Is you may well think that ONLY your OWN reasoning and discernment about the issue of God's existence is adequate to your understandings! And so WHO is the real problem here, amongst unbelievers reading this?
For me the answers are as follows:
A. Yes
B. Yes
C. N/A
D. Perhaps my own reasoning and intellect are the only tools I have to work with. So if I can’t find something with that, I won’t find it.
I am reminded of an atheist description of theism; he said;
Theism is like a blind man scrambling around a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn’t there; AND FINDING IT.
When I look at the big picture that is how it has been for me, except I never found the cat; I just pretended I did.
Ken
Re: Is God responsible?
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:57 am
by Audie
Kenny wrote:Philip wrote:
So, to those unbelievers reading this, I ask:
A) Have you ever asked God to reveal Himself to you, of His existence and more?
B) And IF you asked God (A above), did you REALLY want to know, no matter what He's like, even if He differs in ways that you wouldn't have expected? Remember, God's reality doesn't change based upon our feelings or perceptions. He is Who He is - and not how you might desire Him to be.
C) If you haven't done A and B above, WHY not???!!!
D) As Hana's friend explained, the key to discerning God's existence and exactly WHO He is, is NOT a mere matter ONLY of one's intellect. And THAT, my friends, may well be your problem. Is you may well think that ONLY your OWN reasoning and discernment about the issue of God's existence is adequate to your understandings! And so WHO is the real problem here, amongst unbelievers reading this?
For me the answers are as follows:
A. Yes
B. Yes
C. N/A
D. Perhaps my own reasoning and intellect are the only tools I have to work with. So if I can’t find something with that, I won’t find it.
I am reminded of an atheist description of theism; he said;
Theism is like a blind man scrambling around a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn’t there; AND FINDING IT.
When I look at the big picture that is how it has been for me, except I never found the cat; I just pretended I did.
Ken
When someone finds that cat, who is it (
WHO,as our friend might write it)
is it that has a problem?
Re: Is God responsible?
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:02 am
by RickD
Audie wrote:Kenny wrote:Philip wrote:
So, to those unbelievers reading this, I ask:
A) Have you ever asked God to reveal Himself to you, of His existence and more?
B) And IF you asked God (A above), did you REALLY want to know, no matter what He's like, even if He differs in ways that you wouldn't have expected? Remember, God's reality doesn't change based upon our feelings or perceptions. He is Who He is - and not how you might desire Him to be.
C) If you haven't done A and B above, WHY not???!!!
D) As Hana's friend explained, the key to discerning God's existence and exactly WHO He is, is NOT a mere matter ONLY of one's intellect. And THAT, my friends, may well be your problem. Is you may well think that ONLY your OWN reasoning and discernment about the issue of God's existence is adequate to your understandings! And so WHO is the real problem here, amongst unbelievers reading this?
For me the answers are as follows:
A. Yes
B. Yes
C. N/A
D. Perhaps my own reasoning and intellect are the only tools I have to work with. So if I can’t find something with that, I won’t find it.
I am reminded of an atheist description of theism; he said;
Theism is like a blind man scrambling around a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn’t there; AND FINDING IT.
When I look at the big picture that is how it has been for me, except I never found the cat; I just pretended I did.
Ken
When someone finds that cat, who is it (
WHO,as our friend might write it)
is it that has a problem?
Who has the problem? The idiot who thinks theism is like finding a non-existent black cat.
That's got to be the dumbest Comparison I've heard in a long time.
Re: Is God responsible?
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:24 am
by Audie
RickD wrote:Audie wrote:Kenny wrote:Philip wrote:
So, to those unbelievers reading this, I ask:
A) Have you ever asked God to reveal Himself to you, of His existence and more?
B) And IF you asked God (A above), did you REALLY want to know, no matter what He's like, even if He differs in ways that you wouldn't have expected? Remember, God's reality doesn't change based upon our feelings or perceptions. He is Who He is - and not how you might desire Him to be.
C) If you haven't done A and B above, WHY not???!!!
D) As Hana's friend explained, the key to discerning God's existence and exactly WHO He is, is NOT a mere matter ONLY of one's intellect. And THAT, my friends, may well be your problem. Is you may well think that ONLY your OWN reasoning and discernment about the issue of God's existence is adequate to your understandings! And so WHO is the real problem here, amongst unbelievers reading this?
For me the answers are as follows:
A. Yes
B. Yes
C. N/A
D. Perhaps my own reasoning and intellect are the only tools I have to work with. So if I can’t find something with that, I won’t find it.
I am reminded of an atheist description of theism; he said;
Theism is like a blind man scrambling around a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn’t there; AND FINDING IT.
When I look at the big picture that is how it has been for me, except I never found the cat; I just pretended I did.
Ken
When someone finds that cat, who is it (
WHO,as our friend might write it)
is it that has a problem?
Who has the problem? The idiot who thinks theism is like finding a non-existent black cat.
That's got to be the dumbest Comparison I've heard in a long time.
Who indeed
is that idiot. Why dont you find out?
Re: Is God responsible?
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:16 pm
by Kurieuo
I feel sorry for the foolish theists who believe that a "black cat" is God.
Re: Is God responsible?
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:21 pm
by Kurieuo
Asking God to reveal Himself, often involves a process you go through on God's terms to reach that end. God is more interested in the heart of a person seeking for knowledge, rather than simply making them believe. Consider that everyone will end up believing in God when they die and end up before Him. Yet, the proof of our rejection or love for God is found in this life.