Evidence for God from Science

Kurieuo wrote:Anger? ANGER!? No, not at all. It's simply to highlight the warning.

Anger? ANGER!? no, no anger there.

jenna wrote:ok, jumping in the middle here. Ice, are you a believer in God or not?

Yes. Not in the other 2 persons of the Godhead, though.

jenna wrote:you say you are not Christian, but then you tease someone about a YEC belief.

I don't think I need to be a Christian to ask for an explanation of such an irrational belief.

Kurieuo wrote:It depends in what way he "met God". If he means a physical revealing, then red alarms should rightfully be going off. Ask him why you should believe him? If offering proof and evidence wasn't beyond Jesus, than it is neither beyond your friend. Otherwise, he'll just have to content himself with your healthy skepticism. Let him be offended if that's how it takes it.

Well, he said that in one such prayer on their meeting (so, meeting is a bit different to this seminary I was on), he felt extreme heat and feeling of pure joy come out of his chest towards his head and started crying once he heard some inner voice (not his) say "I love you." As time went on and as he started crying harder the inner voice more loudly repeated the same sentence.

Kurieuo wrote:The strawman argument being made here is that Trinitarian doctrine is accepted by Christians because it's what the early church accepted. While it might be true in some instances, such is actually good reason for accepting such rather than rejecting. Yet, for our own sake, we should most definitely test our beliefs.

Oh, sorry. Didn't mean to portray it as such.

Kurieuo wrote:I wouldn't be sold on any one church, but by all means if you're being pulled towards it, check it out. Report back here your findings. I expect your guard will quite naturally be up, which in this instance, I think would be good.
PS. What denomination or name do they go by?

Yeah, I went. They go with the name: "Pure Truth"

Well, allow me to tell you what happened and my observations (long text inbound)...

At the beginning and at the end of the seminary it reminded me heavily of that Jesus camp, only for adults.
It was truly amazing how many fall under this some kind of hypnosis. Believe me when I say that all of the people here combined haven't heard so many "Thank you, Jesus." and "We/I love you, Jesus." before. Like, he used those instead of periods and commas at certain points and everyone repeats it every now and then.
Either way, before the lecture begun, people usually hugged (like really long hugs followed by "THANK YOU JESUS") and chatted for an hour. Interestingly, when that lecturer came, he hugged absolutely everyone in the room (some 50-70 people). Oh, and he calls himself Apostle (I dislike that heavily and pointed out to my friend that a Prophet (one who warns people) or simply a pastor/priest would be more appropriate and asked him why is that and he answered that Paul calls himself apostle, as well -- 2 Tim 1:1, Eph 1:1, 2 Cor 1:1, Col 1:1) Don't see how that gives him the right to call himself Apostle, but eh...
Afterwards, he started the lecture and said how other Churches are deluded by Satan. I must say that he knows the Scripture pretty well, throws quotes left and right to support what he says (I didn't check them since I do not remember them, but it sounds convincing). More specifically, he talked about the false doctrine of the eternal hell and used some verses from 1 Peter and a certain Epistle to show how Jesus went into hell (not above or stopped at the gates of hell as Catholic creed teaches, but into hell) for the eternal salvatory plan of God is for all of His children to return to him and he cares for every one of them (Luke 15:1-7) and an all loving Father simply can not leave any of His children behind so he descends into hell for them! He also explained that one of the reasons he did go to hell is to preach the Gospel to those who lived by the Book before JC came to Earth. Also mentioned how there is no such thing as purgatory. He made an analogy where if some jar maker decided to make a plan of making 10 jars and got one short or broken, the plan would not be perfect -- and God's plan can not be not perfect hence he seeks all of his children to return (again, Luke 15:1-7)
Of course, here I wanted to ask what of the verses in the Bible that clearly point out to the eternal fire (Matthew 3:12, Mark 9:44-49, Matthew 25:41). Having watched one of his seminary beforehand (I'd link it, but there is no English translation, so there is no point), there he talks how the world eternal is actually not without end and is actually just a long time, not a time period without ending. He said it more nicely and cohesively, but that's the main idea behind it. I am not satisfied with it, obviously.
He continued how you can not love someone you are afraid of and with this doctrine of the eternal fire, bad Christians push others farther away from God (since those being pushed away are afraid of the eternal fire, ya follow? ).
What I found the most amusing is how after he said such Churches are deluded by Satan he proceeded to take some proclamation/revelation number XXXX (there are over 9000 of them) and read from it. So I figured that is where they get most of their doctrine from except for the Scripture. They believe there are 2 inherited sins (one before Adam and Eve when Lucifer, as the first created being, rebelled and departed from God and got named Satan (adversary) and the one from Adam&Eve). Jesus Christ is actually the 2nd created being and, once he accepted his role as the Son of Man and our Saviour, became God. They also believe there exist the so called Enlightened/Heightened(?) Teachers! They are already saved beings that came back to Earth to help others achieve the Kingdom of Heaven! However, they are not "sin-proof" and can therefore spread lies... Oh well, there are quite a lot of those Teachers and as you can see some of them wrote down the revelations they got from Jesus Christ!

Oooh, just found them: Neo-revelationism
"There are numerous examples of such instances in Christian mysticism, during the medieval period and in the modern era e.g. Jacob Boehme and Emanuel Swedenborg, and later Jakob Lorber (1800–1864), Gottfried Mayerhofer (1807–1877), Bertha Dudde (1891–1965) and others."

They also believe not in the resurrection of body. So only your spirit/soul.

Anyway, at one point he said he will read the comments of certain Catholics & Protestants critiques but never got to that because he went reading from one such a revelation themed Fighters for the Truth. Oh, well. Near the end he said that the comments of theirs will be read tomorrow and I was like really interested to hear that so....
but......
After the lecture ended we prayed for like 5 minutes in silence before spreading the carpets and going into deep prayer hypnosis, lol. So, people came one by one to him, he would put his arm on them whilst saying "accept Jesus into your heart, just open your heart and thank you jesus we love you jesus" and so on. "In order for something to happen you need to acknowledge me as Christ's intercessor" etc...
And then people would cry and pray and thank Jesus and say Jeeeeeesus and hmmm... Well, then they would go to him and fall on their back losing consciousness. Power of thy words!
So, after like 15 minutes of that, I exited the building, lol. I have a feeling that my friend's sister (who was there for the first time, as well) and I were the only ones sane there.

Truly, though. Do you know of any scientific (psychological) research that explains this? It would be magnificent if some doctor went under cover and observed these charismatic events and made a research explaining this. Like, I saw this one guy, he was so happy and crying and was thanking Jesus as if he was on heavy drugs. And what is the deal with these losing consciousness? Holy Spirit overdose?

RickD wrote:Don't go. They'll suck you in too.
I really don't want to say, "I told you so".

You told me what? WHY CAN'T I USE THE SPOILER FUNCTION, RICK?

B. W. wrote:

IceMobster wrote:

jenna wrote: I would have to hear what they teach before i answer

....Jesus was not God up until the point he decided to take the role of our Saviour.

Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. NASB

The Pre-incarnate Jesus spoke these things as well...

Isa 41:4, Isa 44:6,8, Isa 48:12,13,

Then in Revelation 1:8,17,18 the same terms are used again revealing just whom He really is...

As for Gnosticism, suggest you read a scholarly article from CRI linked below:

Gnosticism and the Gnostic Jesus, CRI article

Have a nice day...
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Yeah, "This knowledge is not considered to be the possession of the masses but of the Gnostics, the Knowers,..." pretty much. I mean elements of gnostic teaching is definitely present (through these 9000+ new revelations and stuff). I am pretty sure they don't believe in Gnostic Jesus, though.

Bible quotes you presented are n0ice. Will use them if this guy contacts me again. Hopefully not.

Thanks B.W.!

IM wrote:Jesus Christ is actually the 2nd created being and, once he accepted his role as the Son of Man and our Saviour, became God. They also believe there exist the so called Enlightened/Heightened(?) Teachers!

This would make them Christian cult, since they believe Christ was a created being. Scripturally, this also directly conflicts with John 1 with the Word become flesh (Jesus) creating all that was created, without whom nothing was made that was made.

Christian cults generally have their authorities in place (teachers), who are enlightened and through whom Scripture can be "correctly" interpreted. With JWs, we have the Watchtower. With Mormons, they have their elders and BoM also. With the RCC they have the Vatican. (I added that last one in to tease some here )

As for the charisma, such I believe there is legitimate experience to be had. God uses our beliefs and reaches out to us in whatever manner we might be open to Him. That, to me, makes sense. So then, I could be in a church that is Pentecostal in nature, and have a valid experience with God during worship. Even if, the church has wrong doctrine or such experiences might be deemed excessive, unsupported Scripturally, wrong or what-have-you. God will use what we give Him in order to try reach us. Understand, Christianity has no cornerstone on overtly religious spiritual experiences.

Given belief that God has created angelic beings, some of whom have fallen, then we are to test the spirits. To determine whether they are from God. This includes words spoken, just as much as experience. Experiences though, might help you to realise that Christianity isn't merely intellectual, but also experiential. Craig uses this an his last line of argument during his debates, for example:

Experience of God

(4) Finally, God can be immediately known and experienced.

Now this isn't really an argument for God's existence. Rather it is the claim that you can know that God exists wholly apart from arguments simply by immediately experiencing Him. This was the way that people in the Bible knew God. As Professor John Hick explains,

God was known to them as a dynamic will interacting with their own wills, a sheer given reality … as inescapably to be reckoned with as destructive storm and life-giving sunshine. … They did not think of God as an inferred entity, but as an experienced reality. … To them God was not … an idea adopted by the mind, but the experiential reality which gave significance to their lives.{9}

Now if this is the case, then there is a danger that proofs for God could actually distract our attention from God Himself. If you are sincerely seeking God, then I believe that God will make His existence evident to you. The Bible promises, "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you."{10} We mustn't so concentrate on the external proofs that we fail to hear the inner voice of God speaking to our own hearts. For those who listen, God becomes an immediate reality in their lives.

Now Dr. Jesseph would dismiss this experience as being purely based on psychological factors and wish-fulfillment. But the point of the argument that I am giving here is that belief in God, when you experience Him and know Him, is a properly basic belief. It is like the belief in the existence of the external world. Sure, it's possible that there is no external world, that you are really a brain in a vat being stimulated with electrodes by a mad scientist to believe that you are here in this auditorium experiencing this lecture, when actually you are not. You are just a brain sitting in a vat of chemicals being stimulated to think that. But why believe such a hypothesis? Why doubt your experience of the external world? In the absence of good reasons to doubt that, you are within your rational rights in believing that experience to be veridical and genuine. Similarly, in the absence of any reasons to adopt atheism, why should I give up or deny my experience of the existence of God, which is so real and significant to me? (http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcrai ... raig2.html)

Yet, understand that for any legitimate form there are also many illegitimate forms. Mere special experience, and this confuses a lot of people who have spiritual experiences, such doesn't equate to legitimacy of teachings.

Well, in case you are interested, I've just returned from another conversation with these crazy guys. I met them accidentally (OR NOT, I do not know whether that was God's doing. I'll lean onto the side that it is.) and well, we talked....

This I wrote on some other board, but I am too lazy to paraphrase it so I am merely copy pasting it:

Sooooo, guys, how do you deal with charismatics? The "Christians" that base it QUITE a lot on feelings and how it feels during the ceremony or worship or praising. If you do not know what I am talking about imagine a somewhat easier version of "Jesus camp" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac&t=3s).

So, like, they don't ONLY do this, but there is a part in their seminaries where they do this (and I have been to one to observe it. Batshitcrazy, I must say.), including falling onto the carpet "being overwhelmed by the Jesus' presence" after the Apostle of Christ asks Christ to, well, overwhelm you.

I've somewhat researched them and, well, they do not believe in the eternal hell (despite clear contradictions: Mt 25,41; 3,12; Mk 9,44-49; Dn 12,2). Jesus is the center of their teachings, like, they put A LOT of emphasis on Him. It is brought to a point of them constantly saying it (instead of a full stop, or a comma, mind you!). It is like that "YOU WILL NOT DIVIDE US", but instead "THANK YOU JESUS". They repeat it all the time. When they hug you, when you ask them something, when you give them something (like a glass of water)...

This is the sect on wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-revelationism

Alongside the Bible (The non-Orthobrox, non-Catholic Bible), they have these "Revelations" (above 9000 of them!) of like 10-20 people from centuries past that got further revelations from Jesus and they wrote it down.

NOW, I KNOW, you must be thinking: "wtf this crazy lunatics, who would believe them" etc.
Well, my friend (who is no longer really my friend since our friendship got really cold after he joined the sect), got into this s#it aaaaaand well.... I don't know what to do. What to tell him. He is in it deep. Like, "balls deep" expression can not express enough how deep into it he is. It .... I don't know man. It is horrible. It is horrendous and I do not know how to help the man.

I must also say, this leader of theirs, is much more knowledgeable in the Scripture, than me.... Like, well, he is doing it for the last 10-15 years, so.... Ehhhhhh.... :/
He sounds so damn convincing (not to me, because, [love] that heretic, but I can see why people consider him apostle. Yep, apostle, lol. Not priest, not prophet, not pastor. Apostle. Ayyy). Like, I was on that seminary of theirs and he is always friendly, cheerful, in his sermons he supports everything with Scripture verses. Like, every 3rd sentence he supports it with Bible verse, yeah he is pretty good. I couldn't even check all of them ...

I've also listened to my friend's testimony (like, how he got into all of that) for the past few hours and I am like pretty sure he is not coming back from that crazy ass sect....
Like, it is soooo shocking how one can get sucked into it.

So, has anyone had similar experience to this? Other than pointing out the errors in their doctrine (like with eternal hell), what can I do?? Man, I think that even if I point out the doctrine wrong, he would still be into it. Nah, I KNOW!

He has had like tens of events where he felt extreme warmth and love and mercy and at one point god spoke to him and said "silently, warmly: I love you." and many more supernatural occurrences...

Ahh... How do you battle this? Truth be told, I do not wish to have contact with him anymore, it.... I don't know man......... It is really bad. He doesn't talk of anything but Jesus. I mean, sure, you might think that is great, but it is not, man! It is crazy. NO OTHER TOPIC, only Jesus! Dude....

F###'s sake.... So bad. So sad...

You cant give somebody what you dont have to give. So the first thing I would do would be to make sure you yourself have the truth, before you give the 'truth' to someone else. Otherwise it can just be the blind leading the blind.

Here I go Against All I've Known
https://youtu.be/ztBMrULc3Rs

Nessa wrote:You cant give somebody what you dont have to give. So the first thing I would do would be to make sure you yourself have the truth, before you give the 'truth' to someone else. Otherwise it can just be the blind leading the blind.

You again with your blind leading the blind.

I can pretend very well I have the truth and whilst, sure, that obviously doesn't mean I have it, I am no fool/without knowledge concerning the topic.

Also, I am asking for that truth, but I didn't find it yet. I suppose this (and the earlier meeting with Mormons) are a part of my preambula fidei (as Thomas Aquinas would say), walk towards faith.

Friendly advice, don't go near Mormons or charismatics.

If you craze the crazy crazy enough, the craziness crazes back. HAHA!

IceMobster wrote:

Nessa wrote:You cant give somebody what you dont have to give. So the first thing I would do would be to make sure you yourself have the truth, before you give the 'truth' to someone else. Otherwise it can just be the blind leading the blind.

You again with your blind leading the blind.

It's true though.

If you have no true point of reference for the truth, then how can you help anyone else see the truth?

Nessa wrote:

IceMobster wrote:

Nessa wrote:You cant give somebody what you dont have to give. So the first thing I would do would be to make sure you yourself have the truth, before you give the 'truth' to someone else. Otherwise it can just be the blind leading the blind.

You again with your blind leading the blind.

It's true though.

If you have no true point of reference for the truth, then how can you help anyone else see the truth?

But I do have it. The Word of God is my reference to the truth.

I would say Jesus is the true point of reference as revealed in scripture.

Jesus is the word and the truth.

Anyone can use the bible to show their own truth. I'm not necessarily saying this is what you are doing. Just saying to be mindful of not giving what you dont have.

I'd say Ice is less blind than many Christians, even if he says no to having a religious title like "Christian".

• “But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’ And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go.

I don't know, something seems rather comparable to Ice here, even if a little out of context.

IceMobster wrote:

jenna wrote:wow, talk about way out there. i would like to know where he came up with some of this crap like Jesus was not God until the resurrection. I agree with the HS bit, but Satan can rejoin with God? sorry, but nope.

Yes, an all loving Father wants all of his children back in his hands/hug. That is His goal -- to reunite with all of His children.
That includes Satan, only thing he needs to do is honestly repent.
Hmmm.... What else... I couldn't watch more than 50 minutes of that video about Creation -- when he started talking about sparks, energies with that cherry on top where certain saved people are returned to Earth to help others find the Truth...

RickD wrote:Don't go. They'll suck you in too.

I really don't want to say, "I told you so".

Lol. Rick actually cares for me or what the hell? Rick, please. I am no sucker, heretic.

Jokes aside, look, Rick. This friend of mine had another friend --- unbeknownst to me at the time, that guy (let's call him Luke) is also full ham into that sect. If you ask me, both of them are bat s#it crazy. They do not talk about anything but Jesus. Thanking Jesus out loud wherever they are. Smiling all the time, hugging, praying infinite times a day.

To be completely honest, I do not want to become like them. I do not enjoy their company (never did enjoy Luke's company) anymore. However, after having heard their testimony and conversion to faith and Christ, alongside many supernatural events (such as demons teasing them, praying in tongues, fainting, feelings of incredible joy during prayer,...), I am interested to see (but, like, some of them you can observe in a Catholic church during spiritual renewal masses that happen like once a month, also). I also knew that guy for quite some time and I must say, after this conversation we had, I know him no longer, lol. We shared similar worldviews and tastes and stuff, but after this.... Nothing matters to him but Jesus. ONLY JESUSSSSSSS. But that doesn't mean he'd lie about those things, though. It is full scale zealotry. I've been to his room, as well. His uncle openly wants him in a mental hopistal etc.....

It is somewhat tempting, though, you know. As much as I can not know whether a certain deed (or even a thought?) in my life is intercessed by God, so I can not know if some of it is intercessed by Satan. Fu#k's sake! So which one is it at this particular point?

There is another thing, Rick. Both have said that all of it begins once you honestly accept Jesus as your Saviour. I do not think I am able to do that at this point. Especially if it means going madman like they did. But you know, like, I remember that Luke guy a year and half ago saying how he battles demons and encounters them daily and both me and this friend of mine were like woaah what the hell and a bit skeptical about all of it and now this guy goes full ham, as well, hahaaa...

Which is why I asked.... SATAN'S WORK OR NO?
I often remember the: "Begone, Satan!" in certain situations... Fu€king hell.
Matthew 4:10 Matthew 16:23

I don't deny demons attacking him*, see it's not like little red men are actually sitting on his shoulders or anything, it's more worldly influence, at least I think...if he's hearing voices he should probably get to a hospital, since it's quite likely a mental illness.
* It could be that he really saw spirits. I and, as you probably know, many others, experienced things that are best explained that way.

thatkidakayoungguy wrote:I don't deny demons attacking him*, see it's not like little red men are actually sitting on his shoulders or anything, it's more worldly influence, at least I think...if he's hearing voices he should probably get to a hospital, since it's quite likely a mental illness.
* It could be that he really saw spirits. I and, as you probably know, many others, experienced things that are best explained that way.

Yeah? Well, I didn't. Tell me about it.

Btw, thanks for the input, young guy! The guy and I don't really talk anymore since he literally talks of nothing but Jesus (as I explained in the previous posts in this thread) so, yeah, I don't need such people in my life.

IceMobster wrote:

thatkidakayoungguy wrote:I don't deny demons attacking him*, see it's not like little red men are actually sitting on his shoulders or anything, it's more worldly influence, at least I think...if he's hearing voices he should probably get to a hospital, since it's quite likely a mental illness.
* It could be that he really saw spirits. I and, as you probably know, many others, experienced things that are best explained that way.

Yeah? Well, I didn't. Tell me about it.

Btw, thanks for the input, young guy! The guy and I don't really talk anymore since he literally talks of nothing but Jesus (as I explained in the previous posts in this thread) so, yeah, I don't need such people in my life.

Your welcome sir.