Evidence for God from Science

Well, I wouldn't call the "birther" thing entirely a lie, since forensic investigations found the certificate supplied was a fabricated copy. As I said elsewhere:

• If you use a document as a source, your base copy that you then make changes to... the differences you place on top (each letter or number perhaps copied and pasted too from different sources) collectively may look more legitimate and authentic. Until you discover the source document/s. Then every subtle dot on the original source acts as a signature to the original, and the "photoshopping" to edit in Obama's details, well, they're simply redactions to someone elses' birth certificate. That is, what I understand, has happened. If so, it's quite damning that Obama's certificate has been forged.

Whether or not Obama is American, well he most definitely is now with two terms as POTUS, so...

Furthermore, are you saying it wasn't the administration under Hillary that started it? I think the evidence is quite damning seeds were minimally planted. One needs to put their blinders on to not read between the lines, since they were orchestrating a number of negative facts about Obama in the 2008 primaries. As the head of her own candidacy, she'd have been well aware. You seriously think her administration would do anything without her approval, the way Hillary apparently tares into people if they get it wrong?

In an email from Kristi Fuksa to Paul Begala on Jan 8, 2008 the following was listed as an Obama fact that would reflect negatively:

• * 7 Obama (owe-BAHM-uh)'s father was a Muslim and Obama grew up among
  Muslims in the world's most populous Islamic country.

I'm not sure but tbh it doesn't surprise me. Democrats and the left in general have been for years pushing this PC stuff down our throats, and were really talking crap about Trump, which while some of it was deserved, they would twist what he said and fed it to everyone as truth. I'm talking about when he said he assumed some illegal Mexicans were good, and later it was stopped short of that so it appeared that he said they were all rapists, criminals, etc.

Kurieuo wrote:Well, I wouldn't call the "birther" thing entirely a lie, since forensic investigations found the certificate supplied was a fabricated copy. As I said elsewhere:

Yes... I looked at your assertions, and I pointed out at the time, the 'dubious' nature of those investigations and their conclusions.
This is not an agreed upon conclusion by forensic investigators.
So I reject the assertion that legitimate forensic investigations have determined that the certificate was fabricated.

Furthermore, are you saying it wasn't the administration under Hillary that started it?

Absolutely...
In the threads where we discussed the birther lie, I demonstrated that the birther nonsense first showed up in right wing blogs.
And even the picture that ACB likes to show was not used to question where Obama was born, it was used by some in Hillary's campaign to suggest that Obama was secretly a Muslim... until Hillary fired them for it.

As I've stated any number of times, there is no evidence anywhere to indicate that Hillary ever claimed that Obama was not born in the US.
The assertion that birtherism was started by Hillary is a lie perpetuated by Trump, his campaign, and his followers.

Repeating Trumpian 'alternative facts' over and over them doesn't magically make them true.

DBowling wrote: The assertion that birtherism was started by Hillary is a lie perpetuated by Trump, his campaign, and his followers.

But isnt Donald the US. President who said: “Father, I cannot tell a lie” ?

DBowling wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Well, I wouldn't call the "birther" thing entirely a lie, since forensic investigations found the certificate supplied was a fabricated copy. As I said elsewhere:

Yes... I looked at your assertions, and I pointed out at the time, the 'dubious' nature of those investigations and their conclusions.

Original discussion here, I'm not sure you responded to me after I said why I find it quite damning.

Explain what was dubious? The investigators in their own words were expecting to "prove" the certificate legitimate, even voted for Obama twice. They were trying to clear the then President. So it isn't dubious in that respect.

So it must be dubious, I suppose because you wish to close your eyes and put fingers in your ears. Kind of like ACB Trump-wingers do at the other end of the spectrum who now can't see Trump putting any foot wrong.

DB wrote:This is not an agreed upon conclusion by forensic investigators.
So I reject the assertion that legitimate forensic investigations have determined that the certificate was fabricated.

Not agreed upon? It was the conclusion of the investigation (Sheriff Joe Arpaio's) that the certificate was forged. Prove me wrong and that you're truly eyes and ears open, watch this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuhF-Ok3djI

DB wrote:

K wrote:Furthermore, are you saying it wasn't the administration under Hillary that started it?

Absolutely...
In the threads where we discussed the birther lie, I demonstrated that the birther nonsense first showed up in right wing blogs.
And even the picture that ACB likes to show was not used to question where Obama was born, it was used by some in Hillary's campaign to suggest that Obama was secretly a Muslim... until Hillary fired them for it.

As I've stated any number of times, there is no evidence anywhere to indicate that Hillary ever claimed that Obama was not born in the US.
The assertion that birtherism was started by Hillary is a lie perpetuated by Trump, his campaign, and his followers.

Repeating Trumpian 'alternative facts' over and over them doesn't magically make them true.

I just pointed to an email found in Podesta's archive. Such isn't right-wing. I suppose though, the Russians could have planted such an email since they were the ones to leak them all to Wikileaks. Maybe it's Russia-wing information propaganda.

Second, such ideas were around long before Trump and recent elections. Trump never started them, even if he was caught up in them. Such doesn't make him a bald-face liar, but if entirely untrue (questionable) at worst deceived and misled. He even ultimately affirmed, and tried to the issue to rest, by declaring Obama was born in the US (something more than what Hillary did back in 2008). People will decide for themselves and reach conclusions on their own with/without any leading spokesman.

Furthermore, I really don't care for "right" or "left" baloney. People are people, and the majority in the US just living their every day lives probably don't even know what such terms mean. Only a small majority I'd say would affirm "Right" or "Left" labels, if they even know the general positions often assigned to each. I dare say, many Americans out on the street would probably struggle to name your two main parties and who leads them.

DBowling is so far right, that he's gone all the way around, and has crossed over to the left...

DBowling wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Well, I wouldn't call the "birther" thing entirely a lie, since forensic investigations found the certificate supplied was a fabricated copy. As I said elsewhere:

Yes... I looked at your assertions, and I pointed out at the time, the 'dubious' nature of those investigations and their conclusions.
This is not an agreed upon conclusion by forensic investigators.
So I reject the assertion that legitimate forensic investigations have determined that the certificate was fabricated.

Furthermore, are you saying it wasn't the administration under Hillary that started it?

Absolutely...
In the threads where we discussed the birther lie, I demonstrated that the birther nonsense first showed up in right wing blogs.
And even the picture that ACB likes to show was not used to question where Obama was born, it was used by some in Hillary's campaign to suggest that Obama was secretly a Muslim... until Hillary fired them for it.

As I've stated any number of times, there is no evidence anywhere to indicate that Hillary ever claimed that Obama was not born in the US.
The assertion that birtherism was started by Hillary is a lie perpetuated by Trump, his campaign, and his followers.

Repeating Trumpian 'alternative facts' over and over them doesn't magically make them true.

If Hillary fired somebody over the photo then how come she does not say anybody was fired over this photo? She says that she has fired people over stuff like this before but she did not mention anybody being fired over this. I never said Hillary said it,I said she is the one who started the birther conspiracy when this photo was put out by her campaign,I guess you don't believe Matt Drudge saying it came from Hillary's campaign.She did not have to say it,she put out the photo or her campaign did. I don't believe her when she claims she had nothing to do with it. The bottom line is her campaign released the photo and it started the birther conspiracy. Why would it come from Republicans like you claim when this was a Democrat primary she was in? The photo speaks for itself and it implies on its own that Obama was born in Kenya.If you just looked at the photo? You would think this person lived in another country somewhere.

Kurieuo wrote:

DBowling wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Well, I wouldn't call the "birther" thing entirely a lie, since forensic investigations found the certificate supplied was a fabricated copy. As I said elsewhere:

Yes... I looked at your assertions, and I pointed out at the time, the 'dubious' nature of those investigations and their conclusions.

Original discussion here, I'm not sure you responded to me after I said why I find it quite damning.

I had already discussed the flaws in the 'forensic analysis' earlier in the thread you linked to...

Short version...
Arpaio could only find two people to support their assertion that it was forged.
Arpaio's assertion is not a concensus opinion among forensic analysts.
9 points of convergence is not unexpected when you have the same document created on the same typewriters within the same time frame
The date stamps were not identical and they were located in different points in the document.

DB wrote:

K wrote:Furthermore, are you saying it wasn't the administration under Hillary that started it?

Absolutely...
In the threads where we discussed the birther lie, I demonstrated that the birther nonsense first showed up in right wing blogs.
And even the picture that ACB likes to show was not used to question where Obama was born, it was used by some in Hillary's campaign to suggest that Obama was secretly a Muslim... until Hillary fired them for it.

As I've stated any number of times, there is no evidence anywhere to indicate that Hillary ever claimed that Obama was not born in the US.
The assertion that birtherism was started by Hillary is a lie perpetuated by Trump, his campaign, and his followers.

Repeating Trumpian 'alternative facts' over and over them doesn't magically make them true.

I just pointed to an email found in Podesta's archive. Such isn't right-wing.

And the right wing blogs I referred to predated Podesta.

Again the assertion that Hillary started the birther lie is nothing more than a flat out lie.
There is no evidence anywhere to support the assertion that Hillary ever claimed that Obama was not born in the US.

Repeating Trumpian 'alternative facts' over and over them doesn't magically make them true.

RickD wrote:DBowling is so far right, that he's gone all the way around, and has crossed over to the left...

It's what happens I think when you eat one too many McMuffins.

So Abe, just for the sake of argument let's assume that you're right (which you're not) and the Birther lie originated with Hillary Clinton. That would make her a cynical, opportunistic, race-baiting scumbag, right? So anyone else who worked to spread that lie for their own advantage would be a cynical, opportunistic, race-baiting scumbag, too, right?

DBowling wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

DBowling wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Well, I wouldn't call the "birther" thing entirely a lie, since forensic investigations found the certificate supplied was a fabricated copy. As I said elsewhere:

Yes... I looked at your assertions, and I pointed out at the time, the 'dubious' nature of those investigations and their conclusions.

Original discussion here, I'm not sure you responded to me after I said why I find it quite damning.

I had already discussed the flaws in the 'forensic analysis' earlier in the thread you linked to...

Short version...
Arpaio could only find two people to support their assertion that it was forged.
Arpaio's assertion is not a concensus opinion among forensic analysts.
9 points of convergence is not unexpected when you have the same document created on the same typewriters within the same time frame
The date stamps were not identical and they were located in different points in the document.

Arpaio didn't try "finding" two people to support, rather sent the documents to two different digital document experts who live on two different continents. According to these experts, the "nine points of forgery" found on Obama's birth certificate, words, letters and numbers, were digitally copied and pasted.

What other forensic analysts have examined the documents? (please reference)

What were the "typewriters" used? (again, please reference)

Date stamps, what do you mean? When parts of an image are copied and pasted digitally, there is often no date stamp affixed. I'm wondering whether you misunderstand the nature of what is claimed to have happened.

Kurieuo wrote:

RickD wrote:DBowling is so far right, that he's gone all the way around, and has crossed over to the left...

It's what happens I think when you eat one too many McMuffins.

I think DBowling has been drinking the McMuffin kool aid.

RickD wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

RickD wrote:DBowling is so far right, that he's gone all the way around, and has crossed over to the left...

It's what happens I think when you eat one too many McMuffins.

I think DBowling has been drinking the McMuffin kool aid.

I wouldn't want any part of McMuffin anywhere near my mouth, let alone swallowing McMuffin "kool aid" fluids.

I do think Trump needs to lay off the Tweets for awhile. Especially now, as it hasn't even been confirmed yet he's blasting Obama for wiretapping.

Kurieuo wrote:

DBowling wrote: I had already discussed the flaws in the 'forensic analysis' earlier in the thread you linked to...

Short version...
Arpaio could only find two people to support their assertion that it was forged.
Arpaio's assertion is not a concensus opinion among forensic analysts.
9 points of convergence is not unexpected when you have the same document created on the same typewriters within the same time frame
The date stamps were not identical and they were located in different points in the document.

Arpaio didn't try "finding" two people to support, rather sent the documents to two different digital document experts who live on two different continents. According to these experts, the "nine points of forgery" found on Obama's birth certificate, words, letters and numbers, were digitally copied and pasted.

And the fact that there are only two 'experts' in the world who buy into this theory speaks directly to the accuracy of the theory.
If this theory were true, then one would expect a lot more forensic analysts to chime in and corroborate Arpaio's allegations.

Date stamps, what do you mean? When parts of an image are copied and pasted digitally, there is often no date stamp affixed. I'm wondering whether you misunderstand the nature of what is claimed to have happened.

One of the assertions that was made by Arpaio's 'experts' was that the angled date stamps at the bottom of the certificate were part of the content that was allegedly copy/pasted.

The problem with that assertion is that the date stamps on the two documents have different dates and are located in different locations within the box on the documents.

The date stamps are the only content referenced that would not have been typed in.
Points of convergence between typed content doesn't really mean much when you have the same content typed on the same document on the same machines in the same environment in the same timeframe.