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Re: Euthanasia for Unbearable Mental Illnesses
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:03 pm
by Mallz
RickD wrote:
From my understanding, which comes mostly from my dad's hospice nurse, is that morphine can shut down organs. So, in lower doses, it helps with pain. In higher doses, it basically hastens organ failure. Is organ failure and death inevitable? In many cases, yes. But if someone is given high doses of morphine to hasten death, how is that different, morally, from someone performing euthanasia?
As Mallz said, I think in can be indistinguishable.
And, truly, Rick, should I say to you that even the smaller doses will have such an effect on such a fragile body?
I don't have any answers on this. I've been moved to perform where I could have refused (knowing that one that would take my place wouldn't be as responsive and empathetic [I know, you'd never guess that about me]). I could explain further but also think I have been far too blunt in my honesty as it is.
Re: Euthanasia for Unbearable Mental Illnesses
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:50 pm
by PaulSacramento
RickD wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:RickD wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:RickD wrote:
I would agree, but sometimes it's not a clear line in certain situations.
How so?
For one, I'd say it can be a fine line between giving enough medication to relieve pain, and giving too much of certain meds that hasten death.
Morphine is one such drug, which I was told by my dad's hospice nurse, can hasten death if given too much.
Ok, what are your issues with hasten death? I mean, by that you are saying that the medication takes away the pain AND lowers the bodies ability to stave off EVENTUAL death ( since the person will die anyways), so what is the issue?
You can't predict time of death ever.
Sometimes pain is what is keeping the system stimulated enough to continue living, so to cut off pain will "accelerate" death.
BUT this is not the same as INDUCING death DIRECTLY, correct?
From my understanding, which comes mostly from my dad's hospice nurse, is that morphine can shut down organs. So, in lower doses, it helps with pain. In higher doses, it basically hastens organ failure. Is organ failure and death inevitable? In many cases, yes. But if someone is given high doses of morphine to hasten death, how is that different, morally, from someone performing euthanasia?
As Mallz said, I think in can be indistinguishable.
There is no 100% correct way to estimate the qty of morphine that is just right when the body is that close to death.
If the person dies it is not intentional.
Re: Euthanasia for Unbearable Mental Illnesses
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:07 pm
by Mallz
PaulSacramento wrote:
If the person dies it is not intentional.
Don't know how you can think that.
Re: Euthanasia for Unbearable Mental Illnesses
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:19 pm
by RickD
PaulSacramento wrote:RickD wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:RickD wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:
How so?
For one, I'd say it can be a fine line between giving enough medication to relieve pain, and giving too much of certain meds that hasten death.
Morphine is one such drug, which I was told by my dad's hospice nurse, can hasten death if given too much.
Ok, what are your issues with hasten death? I mean, by that you are saying that the medication takes away the pain AND lowers the bodies ability to stave off EVENTUAL death ( since the person will die anyways), so what is the issue?
You can't predict time of death ever.
Sometimes pain is what is keeping the system stimulated enough to continue living, so to cut off pain will "accelerate" death.
BUT this is not the same as INDUCING death DIRECTLY, correct?
From my understanding, which comes mostly from my dad's hospice nurse, is that morphine can shut down organs. So, in lower doses, it helps with pain. In higher doses, it basically hastens organ failure. Is organ failure and death inevitable? In many cases, yes. But if someone is given high doses of morphine to hasten death, how is that different, morally, from someone performing euthanasia?
As Mallz said, I think in can be indistinguishable.
There is no 100% correct way to estimate the qty of morphine that is just right when the body is that close to death.
If the person dies it is not intentional.
In my very limited experience, I'd disagree. I believe my dad's hospice nurse knew almost exactly what would happen. She was basically telling us what would typically happen next(from her experience), the last week of his life.
She knew what x dose was doing to my dad, and what upping that dose by a certain amount would most likely do.
Re: Euthanasia for Unbearable Mental Illnesses
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:25 pm
by RickD
Mallz wrote:RickD wrote:
From my understanding, which comes mostly from my dad's hospice nurse, is that morphine can shut down organs. So, in lower doses, it helps with pain. In higher doses, it basically hastens organ failure. Is organ failure and death inevitable? In many cases, yes. But if someone is given high doses of morphine to hasten death, how is that different, morally, from someone performing euthanasia?
As Mallz said, I think in can be indistinguishable.
And, truly, Rick, should I say to you that even the smaller doses will have such an effect on such a fragile body?
I don't have any answers on this. I've been moved to perform where I could have refused (knowing that one that would take my place wouldn't be as responsive and empathetic [I know, you'd never guess that about me]). I could explain further but also think I have been far too blunt in my honesty as it is.
Sure, that make sense about smaller doses. It's logical that the dose would depend on the person.
Re: Euthanasia for Unbearable Mental Illnesses
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:13 pm
by Nessa
This is suppose to be in relation to unbearable mental illness...
Re: Euthanasia for Unbearable Mental Illnesses
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:32 pm
by RickD
Nessa wrote:This is suppose to be in relation to unbearable mental illness...
Gee,
I wonder where it started to go off topic...
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 94#p228494
Re: Euthanasia for Unbearable Mental Illnesses
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:54 pm
by Nessa
What makes you think I dont talk to myself as well
Re: Euthanasia for Unbearable Mental Illnesses
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:59 pm
by RickD
Nessa wrote:
What makes you think I dont talk to myself as well
Maybe that's the unbearable mental illness you were talking about?
So Nessa,
Recently you started threads about loneliness, and euthanasia in relation to unbearable mental illness.
I may not be sigmund Freud, but I think you may be trying to tell us something.
Are you ok?
Re: Euthanasia for Unbearable Mental Illnesses
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:35 pm
by Nessa
RickD wrote:Nessa wrote:
What makes you think I dont talk to myself as well
Maybe that's the unbearable mental illness you were talking about?
So Nessa,
Recently you started threads about loneliness, and euthanasia in relation to unbearable mental illness.
I may not be sigmund Freud, but I think you may be trying to tell us something.
Are you ok?
So with that sorta logic if I now do some threads on the joys of belonging and feelings of happiness it must indicate I'm on top of the world?
Re: Euthanasia for Unbearable Mental Illnesses
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:40 pm
by RickD
Nessa wrote:RickD wrote:Nessa wrote:
What makes you think I dont talk to myself as well
Maybe that's the unbearable mental illness you were talking about?
So Nessa,
Recently you started threads about loneliness, and euthanasia in relation to unbearable mental illness.
I may not be sigmund Freud, but I think you may be trying to tell us something.
Are you ok?
So with that sorta logic if I now do some threads on the joys of belonging and feelings of happiness it must indicate I'm on top of the world?
No. Considering your other two threads, it would indicate you're bipolar.
Re: Euthanasia for Unbearable Mental Illnesses
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:42 pm
by Nessa
RickD wrote:Nessa wrote:RickD wrote:Nessa wrote:
What makes you think I dont talk to myself as well
Maybe that's the unbearable mental illness you were talking about?
So Nessa,
Recently you started threads about loneliness, and euthanasia in relation to unbearable mental illness.
I may not be sigmund Freud, but I think you may be trying to tell us something.
Are you ok?
So with that sorta logic if I now do some threads on the joys of belonging and feelings of happiness it must indicate I'm on top of the world?
No. Considering your other two threads, it would indicate you're bipolar.
With or without multiple personalities?
Aaaaargggghh off topic!
You tricked me
Re: Euthanasia for Unbearable Mental Illnesses
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:44 pm
by RickD
Nessa wrote:RickD wrote:Nessa wrote:RickD wrote:Nessa wrote:
What makes you think I dont talk to myself as well
Maybe that's the unbearable mental illness you were talking about?
So Nessa,
Recently you started threads about loneliness, and euthanasia in relation to unbearable mental illness.
I may not be sigmund Freud, but I think you may be trying to tell us something.
Are you ok?
So with that sorta logic if I now do some threads on the joys of belonging and feelings of happiness it must indicate I'm on top of the world?
No. Considering your other two threads, it would indicate you're bipolar.
With or without multiple personalities?
Aaaaargggghh off topic!
You tricked me
Like taking candy from a baby.
Re: Euthanasia for Unbearable Mental Illnesses
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:41 am
by PaulSacramento
Nessa wrote:This is suppose to be in relation to unbearable mental illness...
I think that was addressed quite early that if a patient is terminal, that is one thing BUT if the patient is NOT terminal that euthanasia is wrong.
It is a very emotional situation of course, but what is "unbearable"?
The pain?
The humiliation?
For whom?
Re: Euthanasia for Unbearable Mental Illnesses
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:41 pm
by Nessa
PaulSacramento wrote:Nessa wrote:This is suppose to be in relation to unbearable mental illness...
I think that was addressed quite early that if a patient is terminal, that is one thing BUT if the patient is NOT terminal that euthanasia is wrong.
It is a very emotional situation of course, but what is "unbearable"?
The pain?
The humiliation?
For whom?
Yes that was some peoples take on it but by no means is the final say or necessarily the truth