Evidence for God from Science

Purgatory was one of the most brilliant money-making schemes in history! The architects of it well knew that, as everyone has "loved" ones that have died that were the worst possible human beings - totally unspiritual, profane types people almost certainly figured to be destined for hell. So the bishops' boys could pull out their calculator, punch a few weighted numbers in - based on a scale designed to determine just how nasty a piece of work their deceased relative was known to be - and BINGO! "My good man, for the bargain price of $$$ _______, we can spring Uncle Fred from purgatory!" And with no shortage of dead jerks around, it's easy to see how the scam filled CC coffers. CA-CHING!!!

And Martin Luther was not amused!

$$$Phillip$$$. The prayer of St Gertrude was likely written in 13th century. Are you saying the church distorted prayers like that for money making purposes ? Do you at least agree that your prayers can help people in the afterlife ?

LittleHamster: Do you at least agree that your prayers can help people in the afterlife ?

Of course not - you won't find such a belief supported in the Bible.

Philip wrote:

LittleHamster: Do you at least agree that your prayers can help people in the afterlife ?

Of course not - you won't find such a belief supported in the Bible.

Fair enough. Since I can't give you any proof, not much point talking about it any further.

and don't forget, there are a lot of things that are not supported or mentioned in the bible, but still work !

LittleHamster wrote:

Philip wrote:

LittleHamster: Do you at least agree that your prayers can help people in the afterlife ?

Of course not - you won't find such a belief supported in the Bible.

Fair enough. Since I can't give you any proof, not much point talking about it any further.

and don't forget, there are a lot of things that are not supported or mentioned in the bible, but still work !

Of course. “Don’t spit into the wind” isn’t in the Bible, but you still shouldn’t do it.

The Bible is an enormous document by any standard, and as thick as concrete with content. And this is God trying to be *brief* with us.

John 8:21 (Jesus said): 21 So he said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.”

Hebrews 9:27: "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment"

https://carm.org/bible-about-purgatory

https://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html

Hortator wrote:

LittleHamster wrote:

Philip wrote:

LittleHamster: Do you at least agree that your prayers can help people in the afterlife ?

Of course not - you won't find such a belief supported in the Bible.

Fair enough. Since I can't give you any proof, not much point talking about it any further.

and don't forget, there are a lot of things that are not supported or mentioned in the bible, but still work !

Of course. “Don’t spit into the wind” isn’t in the Bible, but you still shouldn’t do it.

The Bible is an enormous document by any standard, and as thick as concrete with content. And this is God trying to be *brief* with us.

Not to mention the other book-creation.

Storyteller wrote:I hope this thread stays. The discussions on this board about abortion, the rights of a mother to abort their baby (or not) and when human life begins changed my veiws.
I used to believe it was down to the individual, that it should be their choice. After reading and discussing on here i came to see that abortion is murder.
As for when life begins, it begins the second of fertlilization. I lost four babies, one before I even knew i was pregnant and there is no difference to me. Sure, losing, or aborting, a baby at say 4 weeks as opposed to 12 weeks, is different but only because people can kid themselves the baby is merely a collection of cells as if that makes it okay. We are all a collection of cells.

It makes sense to me that the souls of aborted babies go to heaven as I dont think they will have rejected Christ.

Abortion is not murder. Murder implies killing without any justification, cause or valid reasons.

Abortion results in killing an innocent human life. People mightn't like that fact, feel inconvenienced by that fact, laws might say it's fine for women to go see someone who can kill and remove a 24 week baby in the womb, but given biologically such represents a human life and secondly such has done nothing wrong which morally justifies a death sentence, then such for me fits what I understand murder to be.

Kurieuo wrote:Abortion results in killing an innocent human life. People mightn't like that fact, feel inconvenienced by that fact, laws might say it's fine for women to go see someone who can kill and remove a 24 week baby in the womb, but given biologically such represents a human life and secondly such has done nothing wrong which morally justifies a death sentence, then such for me fits what I understand murder to be.

I have never considered abortion to be murder and I think it's just going too far with the idea. While I generally don't like the idea of abortion - because it is a waste of potential life - I think there are times when abortion works as a solution.

Philip wrote:John 8:21 (Jesus said): 21 So he said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.”

Hebrews 9:27: "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment"

https://carm.org/bible-about-purgatory

https://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html

Some other things to consider:

- There is the case of Moses and Elijah showing up on the mountain before the final show. Where were they in the meantime ?

- Peter tells of Judas "going to his own place" (likely to be hell but it is not stated) Acts 1:25

- Jesus says "My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?" John 14:2

Heaven and hell - definitely yes, but there seems to be a lot more too it. For example Mysticism and some other esoteric religious texts talk of many hells and heavens (7 planes - each one comprised of 7 subplanes - 49 in total and the ones beyond that which no human soul has reached yet). Where you end up depends on law and grace.

neo-x wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Abortion results in killing an innocent human life. People mightn't like that fact, feel inconvenienced by that fact, laws might say it's fine for women to go see someone who can kill and remove a 24 week baby in the womb, but given biologically such represents a human life and secondly such has done nothing wrong which morally justifies a death sentence, then such for me fits what I understand murder to be.

I have never considered abortion to be murder and I think it's just going too far with the idea. While I generally don't like the idea of abortion - because it is a waste of potential life - I think there are times when abortion works as a solution.

It isn't just waste of potential life, but rather waste of actual life. I think, if that clicked with you really, that a baby inutero was as real a human life as a baby born, that you'd not consider such evil a viable solution. For example, I'm assuming you wouldn't consider infanticide a viable solution to whatever issue you believe is the problem.

To speak more directly to the problem you have seen, as I understand, firsthand in your own country re: poverty, homeless women, outcast, uneducated, who struggle getting their own food let alone trying to nurture children. Some might say that a viable solution would be simply irradicating such poor people, people who are largely forgotten and ignored by society at large anyway. Many don't seem that smart, they don't contribute really to society, we might even say they appear less than human, bottom feeders, the dirt of society. If they died, they'd have noone cry for them... so how exactly are they valuable? Why should we care?

I don't really think that way, rather I'm just pressing the logic that taking any human life should ever be considered a viable solution. Regardless of what people say about what consider right and good so they don't like horrible people in front others, I know that many out there really don't give a damn. Many at the bottom end of society are considered as having no value, undeserving of human dignity. Many even delight in kicking someone who is down and out, or even kicking someone down further, as such makes them feel superior. That is wrong. It is a sad situation, and I'm glad I follow a Lord who considered such the most precious to reach out to: the weak, the poor and downtrodden. Jesus would never lower the bar to accept as a solution evil to help alleviate a greater evil, neither should we.

neo-x wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Abortion results in killing an innocent human life. People mightn't like that fact, feel inconvenienced by that fact, laws might say it's fine for women to go see someone who can kill and remove a 24 week baby in the womb, but given biologically such represents a human life and secondly such has done nothing wrong which morally justifies a death sentence, then such for me fits what I understand murder to be.

I have never considered abortion to be murder and I think it's just going too far with the idea. While I generally don't like the idea of abortion - because it is a waste of potential life - I think there are times when abortion works as a solution.

So you only consider killing a baby outside the womb as murder?

neo-x wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Abortion results in killing an innocent human life. People mightn't like that fact, feel inconvenienced by that fact, laws might say it's fine for women to go see someone who can kill and remove a 24 week baby in the womb, but given biologically such represents a human life and secondly such has done nothing wrong which morally justifies a death sentence, then such for me fits what I understand murder to be.

I have never considered abortion to be murder and I think it's just going too far with the idea. While I generally don't like the idea of abortion - because it is a waste of potential life - I think there are times when abortion works as a solution.

This coming from a guy who believes that there's no way to justify the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Neo, that's pretty inconsistent, wouldn't you say?

abortion works for a solution? You say that like a solution couldnt possibly be evil.