Evidence for God from Science

Stu wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 6:16 am

RickD wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 5:54 am

Stu wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 3:37 am Here it is (thanks to google). It's talking about the end times.

<a class="rtBibleRef" href="https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/2%20Thess%202.2-4" data-reference="2 Thess 2.2-4" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">2 Thessalonians 2:2-4</a> King James Version (KJV)
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Stu,

I'm not sure how you get this:

Even the Bible talks about a falling away in the end times. People who once were Christians and then fall away from the faith.

From the text in 2 Thessalonians that you posted. Specifically, where does the text say Christians, or those who have eternal life, fall away from the faith, and no longer have eternal life?

It seems to me that you're reading that into the text.

From this:

"for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first"
You have to fall away from something. In this case it is describing a falling away of the flock from the faith.

If you disagree, then what is the falling away from?

It's impossible to fall away from something/someone unless you were ON or IN something/someone.
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When I use the term, "Committed to Christ," I'm referring only to those who really have truly believed and placed their faith in Jesus, and have expressed to Him their desire for Him - AS OPPOSED TO - people who once merely prayed a prayer and only intellectually believed, and only EXTERNALLY showed signs of belief and fellowship with believers. The second group fall away BECAUSE THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH, and so OF COURSE they fall away! They merely followed Christ as one would follow a cult - and for many of the same reasons: They liked being part of a group and being loved. They like many of the teachings. They intellectually believed in The Gospel story and Jesus. But they never truly had a heart and mind to have faith in Jesus.

And so the above explains how people can - to us - appear to fall away. Of course, initially perhaps allowing themselves to be drawn by God, they never went beyond that stage - which isn't one of faith - so in that sense they also HAVE fallen away because, though drawn - their heart has remained in resistance to Jesus. But as we can't always see or know what is going on in a person's mind, to us, it looks AS IF they lost their faith. But that is unScriptural because Scripture reveals that salvation begins at the moment of faith and the Holy Spirit's indwelling, and that this is the point of entering ETERNAL life. No, God does not make mistakes or merely TEMPORARILY save people. As there is no such thing as temporary, ETERNAL life!

Philip wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 8:44 am When I use the term, "Committed to Christ," I'm referring only to those who really have truly believed and placed their faith in Jesus, and have expressed to Him their desire for Him - AS OPPOSED TO - people who once merely prayed a prayer and only intellectually believed, and only EXTERNALLY showed signs of belief and fellowship with believers. The second group fall away BECAUSE THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH, and so OF COURSE they fall away! They merely followed Christ as one would follow a cult - and for many of the same reasons: They liked being part of a group and being loved. They like many of the teachings. They intellectually believed in The Gospel story and Jesus. But they never truly had a heart and mind to have faith in Jesus.

And so the above explains how people can - to us - appear to fall away. Of course, initially perhaps allowing themselves to be drawn by God, they never went beyond that stage - which isn't one of faith - so in that sense they also HAVE fallen away because, though drawn - their heart has remained in resistance to Jesus. But as we can't always see or know what is going on in a person's mind, to us, it looks AS IF they lost their faith. But that is unScriptural because Scripture reveals that salvation begins at the moment of faith and the Holy Spirit's indwelling, and that this is the point of entering ETERNAL life. No, God does not make mistakes or merely TEMPORARILY save people. As there is no such thing as temporary, ETERNAL life!

I understand what you mean, however, scripture doesn't go into that detail, but simply says "a falling away" which presupposes being true believers...otherwise why would it be necessary to warn against being shaken in mind or troubled?

It's the same point made in the movie, "A Few Good Men"

Lt. Kaffee to Col. Jessup wrote:If Lt. Kendrick gave an order that Santiago
wasn't to be touched, then why did
he have to be transferred?

But the answer to that question came a few moments prior to that question.

Col. Jessup wrote:Sometimes men take matters into their own hands.

And that's precisely why we get a warning of there being a falling away. Because Man will be Man. Flawed and dumb.
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Stu wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 6:16 am

RickD wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 5:54 am

Stu wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 3:37 am Here it is (thanks to google). It's talking about the end times.

<a class="rtBibleRef" href="https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/2%20Thess%202.2-4" data-reference="2 Thess 2.2-4" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">2 Thessalonians 2:2-4</a> King James Version (KJV)
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Stu,

I'm not sure how you get this:

Even the Bible talks about a falling away in the end times. People who once were Christians and then fall away from the faith.

From the text in 2 Thessalonians that you posted. Specifically, where does the text say Christians, or those who have eternal life, fall away from the faith, and no longer have eternal life?

It seems to me that you're reading that into the text.

From this:

"for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first"
You have to fall away from something. In this case it is describing a falling away of the flock from the faith.

If you disagree, then what is the falling away from?

I tend to agree with what you just wrote. Especially in light of the context. it could be a falling away by those left after the rapture, who thought they were saved, but weren't. Nonetheless, the text doesn't say anything about salvation, much less losing it. Remember, as John 3:16 says, anyone who believes, has eternal life. And if you lose eternal life, it was never eternal to begin with, and the Bible is wrong.

RickD wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 9:53 am

Stu wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 6:16 am

RickD wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 5:54 am

Stu wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 3:37 am Here it is (thanks to google). It's talking about the end times.

<a class="rtBibleRef" href="https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/2%20Thess%202.2-4" data-reference="2 Thess 2.2-4" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">2 Thessalonians 2:2-4</a> King James Version (KJV)
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Stu,

I'm not sure how you get this:

Even the Bible talks about a falling away in the end times. People who once were Christians and then fall away from the faith.

From the text in 2 Thessalonians that you posted. Specifically, where does the text say Christians, or those who have eternal life, fall away from the faith, and no longer have eternal life?

It seems to me that you're reading that into the text.

From this:

"for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first"
You have to fall away from something. In this case it is describing a falling away of the flock from the faith.

If you disagree, then what is the falling away from?

I tend to agree with what you just wrote. Especially in light of the context. it could be a falling away by those left after the rapture, who thought they were saved, but weren't. Nonetheless, the text doesn't say anything about salvation, much less losing it. Remember, as John 3:16 says, anyone who believes, has eternal life. And if you lose eternal life, it was never eternal to begin with, and the Bible is wrong.

Yes, whoever so believes - what if you stop believing, then you lose your salvation.
It is talking about eternal life in heaven, not on earth.

So if you once believed in Jesus as God's son and our saviour, and then changed your mind and turn to Islam for instance, you no longer believe and lose your eternal life in heaven.

Stu wrote:
Yes, whoever so believes - what if you stop believing, then you lose your salvation.
It is talking about eternal life in heaven, not on earth.

No Stu. Reread John 3:16:

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

It's the simple gospel. Believe, and have eternal life. The moment you have eternal life, you are secure in Christ. If you could lose salvation, you wouldn't have eternal life.

And we have eternal life, the moment we believe! It's not some futuristic hope, based on our performance, or ability.

See John 5:24:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Believe, and you have passed from death to life. You are a new creature in Christ! Notice that it doesn't say that he who believes, and continues to believe til the moment of death, will have eternal life in heaven.

If anyone becomes saved, they have eternal life - which begins on earth. If what this new life refers to is not ETERNAL, if it's temporary and contingent upon some poor fellow trying to maintain his own salvation, then the Bible lies. And it also would mean the Bible lies asserting how we can KNOW we will be with the Lord forever.

How could King David have written?

"Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever."

And notices the verse before:

"Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life."

WHOSE goodness and mercy is David referencing. As for his assertion that He will be with the Lord "forever" well, as he was yet a mortal, sinful man, upon writing this, how could he know this?

How does anyone think that THEY can manage to retain their own salvation? You couldn't earn it, NEVER deserved it, were entirely dependent upon God, as a poor beggar to receive it - and yet you think you can maintain it? What, by following all of the rules? Anyone who thinks they can maintain and protect their own salvation is absolutely delusional!

Philip wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 12:18 pm How does anyone think that THEY can manage to retain their own salvation? You couldn't earn it, NEVER deserved it, were entirely dependent upon God, as a poor beggar to receive it - and yet you think you can maintain it? What, by following all of the rules? Anyone who thinks they can maintain and protect their own salvation is absolutely delusional!

Maintain it? Not hardly. I don't maintain my salvation to any degree. It is secure in Christ as long as I remain faithful. The only "work" I can do is fall on the mercy of God. So what if one chooses not to fall on the mercy of God for being deceived ( James 1:16 ). And notice he's talking to believers. Why even make a warning of being deceived if being deceived does not matter? It must matter if there is a warning.

This is not a warning against minor slips and falls. We don't have salvation one minute and then because we look at a woman lustfully, lose our salvation and then gain it back after coming to our senses. This is about a complete turnaround. Being self-deceived OR being deceived by another. A change in attitude towards the gospel of Christ.

James 1:22-25 NIV wrote:22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

We can deceive ourselves by simply listening and not putting the Word into practice. By doing so, we become complacent and miss the boat, so to speak, by having a faith that doesn't work. And while it is only faith that saves, our faith is evidenced by our works. ( James 2:17 )
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Bavarian: "Maintain it? Not hardly. I don't maintain my salvation to any degree. It is secure in Christ as long as I remain faithful."

Contradiction much? "I don't maintain my salvation" ... "as long as I _____________." That is saying it is secure, but based upon your own efforts - which is delusional!

BavarianWheels wrote:
Maintain it? Not hardly. I don't maintain my salvation to any degree. It is secure in Christ as long as I remain faithful.

Define "remain faithful".

Philip wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 1:10 pm

Bavarian: "Maintain it? Not hardly. I don't maintain my salvation to any degree. It is secure in Christ as long as I remain faithful."

Contradiction much? "I don't maintain my salvation" ... "as long as I _____________." That is saying it is secure, but based upon your own efforts - which is delusional!

RickD wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 1:33 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
Maintain it? Not hardly. I don't maintain my salvation to any degree. It is secure in Christ as long as I remain faithful.

Define "remain faithful".

That's not delusional...it's fact. If faith that doesn't work is dead, then it is faith that works that is remaining faithful.

See James 2:14-20

Two birds...one stone.
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BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 2:49 pm

Philip wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 1:10 pm

Bavarian: "Maintain it? Not hardly. I don't maintain my salvation to any degree. It is secure in Christ as long as I remain faithful."

Contradiction much? "I don't maintain my salvation" ... "as long as I _____________." That is saying it is secure, but based upon your own efforts - which is delusional!

RickD wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 1:33 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
Maintain it? Not hardly. I don't maintain my salvation to any degree. It is secure in Christ as long as I remain faithful.

Define "remain faithful".

That's not delusional...it's fact. If faith that doesn't work is dead, then it is faith that works that is remaining faithful.

See James 2:14-20

Two birds...one stone.
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So, faith without works is dead faith(which is still faith, it's just dead)? Or is faith without works, no faith? In other words, faith without works is dead, meaning not producing good fruit? Or is dead faith not faith anymore?

Bavarian: That's not delusional...it's fact. If faith that doesn't work is dead, then it is faith that works that is remaining faithful.

NO! Faith doesn't WORK and it's not caused nor held together by works. If you HAVE faith, then works will be there - works are a result, not a cause, of one's faith. Being obedient is a SIGN of one's faith. But, Bavarian, are you ALWAYS obedient to everything God asks of us? Course not. So, when you are disobedient or don't do what God wants you to - have you lost your faith? Will you continue to often be disobedient? Scripture says you WILL, as long as you live in human flesh. So, what level of disobedience fails to keep your faith in Jesus - a little? A fair amount? A LOT? How about NONE of your works is keeping your faith intact, because GOD is the one Who is ALWAYS faithful. HE is the one Who will never let go of us!

So, you believe God desires to save someone. And so He does, when they truly come to Him through faith in Christ. But for one you say has lost their salvation - had it, not don't - did God make a mistake? Does He save someone who He has always known won't stay faithful to the end? How does the Apostle Paul say He is "confident" of the eternal life of those he said would experience their faith's "completion?" WHO, exactly, does Paul say in Philippians 1:6 will "bring (it) to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." Paul? His Christian brothers in the audience? NO! He says it is GOD who completes it - which is precisely why Paul has confidence of the faith of his audience enduring to the end - because it is God who both "began" and will "bring it to completion." Because if this were a matter of human perseverance, Paul's statement is merely a hopeful untruth that he could have no way of knowing - whether about himself or any other Christian.

RickD wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 3:13 pm So, faith without works is dead faith(which is still faith, it's just dead)? Or is faith without works, no faith? In other words, faith without works is dead, meaning not producing good fruit? Or is dead faith not faith anymore?

I think you’re able to read and comprehend, RickD. What does the verse say?

James 2:14 wrote:14What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

James 2:20 wrote:20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

Clearly you have an argument...but not against what I’ve said, but against what the scripture says.

Clearly we are not saved by our deeds, but rather through faith...and a faith that is evidenced by deeds...or doing as the Spirit does.

Romans 8:5-8 wrote:5Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

Is it not as clear as crystal considering verse 7!? Those that live by the Spirit, submit to God’s law...all of it. Not in the sense that the law saves, because it is powerless to do so, but because that IS what the Spirit does...as the Spirit IS righteous, therefore not condemned by the Law!
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Philip wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 3:29 pm NO! Faith doesn't WORK and it's not caused nor held together by works. If you HAVE faith, then works will be there - works are a result, not a cause, of one's faith. Being obedient is a SIGN of one's faith.

You’re contradicting yourself...does faith work or not? If work is a result of faith, then faith works!

Philip wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 3:29 pm But, Bavarian, are you ALWAYS obedient to everything God asks of us? Course not. So, when you are disobedient or don't do what God wants you to - have you lost your faith? Will you continue to often be disobedient? Scripture says you WILL, as long as you live in human flesh. So, what level of disobedience fails to keep your faith in Jesus - a little? A fair amount? A LOT? How about NONE of your works is keeping your faith intact, because GOD is the one Who is ALWAYS faithful. HE is the one Who will never let go of us!

Agreed...but we have to remain in Him! ( John 15:4,6,7 )

John 15:10 wrote:If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, JUST AS I HAVE KEPT MY FATHER’S COMMANDS and remain in his love.

If Jesus Himself must submit to God’s commands/law...then how much more should we, through faith ( because we can’t keep them perfectly to BE righteous ), do the same?

Philip wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 3:29 pm So, you believe God desires to save someone. And so He does, when they truly come to Him through faith in Christ. But for one you say has lost their salvation - had it, not don't - did God make a mistake? Does He save someone who He has always known won't stay faithful to the end? How does the Apostle Paul say He is "confident" of the eternal life of those he said would experience their faith's "completion?" WHO, exactly, does Paul say in Philippians 1:6 will "bring (it) to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." Paul? His Christian brothers in the audience? NO! He says it is GOD who completes it - which is precisely why Paul has confidence of the faith of his audience enduring to the end - because it is God who both "began" and will "bring it to completion." Because if this were a matter of human perseverance, Paul's statement is merely a hopeful untruth that he could have no way of knowing - whether about himself or any other Christian.

God cannot/will not “complete” anyone’s faith that has turned away...and there is evidence to turning away, and a warning to remain in Him...I’ve given multiple texts to back that up.

I agree with you in light of a sinner that falls and stands up, falls and stands up...but to the believer that completely leaves and rejects God, He cannot and will not force their will! I will admit that if God begins a work, He will complete it.

But if that were true in the most literals sense, then there would be NO NEED for warnings to believers! I think I’ve shown plenty of warnings and admonishing the believer to REMAIN. The believer has a part in salvation...and that is to believe...and remain in that belief. God has done all that is needed, but unless one is a Universalist in their theology, then each person has to submit...bend the knee...acknowledge God. God offers the gift...our part is acceptance...and scripture says that that acceptance ( faith ) is dead, worth nothing, apart from the work that NATURALLY results from that faith on a continual basis.

It’s not my interpretation...it’s what the Word says.
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