Evidence for God from Science

melanie wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 10:03 am Like how it’s an abomination to eat sea creatures without fin or scale so crab, lobster, squid and calamari. Plus bacon and pork.
Or to approach a menstruating female.
Or all insects that crawl on all fours.
An unfit animal for slaughter.
All work and employment on the sabbath.
Getting divorced ect and so on

I don’t think it’s so cut and dry because by those standards we’ve all committed an abomination.
Secondly we are no longer under the law but set free by Jesus

Being no longer under law doesn't mean we are free to sin, does it?
Rather are freed from the curse of the law...accusing us ( and is there anyone righteous? ) of our sin. The law exists to unmask sin. It exists to make us aware of what sin is. Romans is ripe with this...but this is actually another topic. I digress. Forgive me.
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melanie wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 10:03 am Like how it’s an abomination to eat sea creatures without fin or scale so crab, lobster, squid and calamari. Plus bacon and pork.
Or to approach a menstruating female.
Or all insects that crawl on all fours.
An unfit animal for slaughter.
All work and employment on the sabbath.
Getting divorced ect and so on

I don’t think it’s so cut and dry because by those standards we’ve all committed an abomination.
Secondly we are no longer under the law but set free by Jesus

So once you've sinned and asked for forgiveness, you just carry on sinning again?
The New Testament makes about 3 references to homosexuality being wrong, and says that they shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Homosexuality in the New Testament

It’s a slippery slope. I’m not saying it’s not a sin as I said I don’t know but the couple of references in the Old Testament are on par with eating shellfish and working on the sabbath.
We pretty much allow both of those with an understanding of it being Old Testament teaching and not entirely relevant to today. Or at the very least not questionable to ones salvation.
Where do we draw that line? Scripture doesn’t really so we’ve done so ourselves? Let go what we don’t think is relevant and held onto what we think is? That’s very subjective.

melanie wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 10:27 am It’s a slippery slope. I’m not saying it’s not a sin as I said I don’t know but the couple of references in the Old Testament are on par with eating shellfish and working on the sabbath.
We pretty much allow both of those with an understanding of it being Old Testament teaching and not entirely relevant to today. Or at the very least not questionable to ones salvation.
Where do we draw that line? Scripture doesn’t really so we’ve done so ourselves? Let go what we don’t think is relevant and held onto what we think is? That’s very subjective.

Wrong, you've just made up your own mind (and are ignoring scripture) and refuse to see what the New Testament says about it.
It says 3 times that it is wrong and that you will not inherit the kingdom of God if you do so.

You have bought into the liberal leftist culture that homosexuality is no different to heterosexuality. That (according to the Bible) is just plain wrong. So either say that you have made up your own mind that homosexuality is ok, but don't say that the Bible doesn't condemn it. Because that is just plain false.

melanie wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 10:27 am It’s a slippery slope. I’m not saying it’s not a sin as I said I don’t know but the couple of references in the Old Testament are on par with eating shellfish and working on the sabbath.
We pretty much allow both of those with an understanding of it being Old Testament teaching and not entirely relevant to today. Or at the very least not questionable to ones salvation.
Where do we draw that line? Scripture doesn’t really so we’ve done so ourselves? Let go what we don’t think is relevant and held onto what we think is? That’s very subjective.

Christ kept the Sabbath... Do you think we should ignore how God/Jesus acted while on earth? Wasn't there a huge WWJD movement that started not too far back in history? I think that is a great question to ask.

But you still haven't answered my question...which is the real topic.
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Stu wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 10:21 am

melanie wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 10:03 am Like how it’s an abomination to eat sea creatures without fin or scale so crab, lobster, squid and calamari. Plus bacon and pork.
Or to approach a menstruating female.
Or all insects that crawl on all fours.
An unfit animal for slaughter.
All work and employment on the sabbath.
Getting divorced ect and so on

I don’t think it’s so cut and dry because by those standards we’ve all committed an abomination.
Secondly we are no longer under the law but set free by Jesus

So once you've sinned and asked for forgiveness, you just carry on sinning again?
The New Testament makes about 3 references to homosexuality being wrong, and says that they shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Homosexuality in the New Testament

Do I need give the very long list of what else is considered sinful in the Old Testament and by the standard of they shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven? Many things that we all knowingly do, some regretfully and some not so at all.
If people believe it’s inherently wrong they are entitled to that opinion. But it’s not really fair to pick and choose which Old Testament Law is still relevant whilst brazenly not adhering to clearly written scripture in regards to other issues.
Either we must adhere to all Old Testament Law or we don’t. Otherwise it’s a subjective pick choosey scenario which is in my opinion hypocritical.

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 10:36 am

melanie wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 10:27 am It’s a slippery slope. I’m not saying it’s not a sin as I said I don’t know but the couple of references in the Old Testament are on par with eating shellfish and working on the sabbath.
We pretty much allow both of those with an understanding of it being Old Testament teaching and not entirely relevant to today. Or at the very least not questionable to ones salvation.
Where do we draw that line? Scripture doesn’t really so we’ve done so ourselves? Let go what we don’t think is relevant and held onto what we think is? That’s very subjective.

Christ kept the Sabbath... Do you think we should ignore how God/Jesus acted while on earth? Wasn't there a huge WWJD movement that started not too far back in history? I think that is a great question to ask.

But you still haven't answered my question...which is the real topic.
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Actually I replied in length if you scroll back but I’ll repost;

Christ’s image, the image of God reflects and represents all of us. We are all born in the image of God without exception. All born equal under His Grace.
We are not born perfect nor without flaw but on even ground in the eyes of Our Father. By that token we are judged, as we all will be based on our measure and rod we use against others.
How harshly we judge others will be the rod used to judge us.
Forgiveness is Gods language and it has no bounds for its based on love and Gods love is limitless so it’s without fear.
So it’s not in fear that I reserve my judgement of others but in humility of how far I fall in so many ways.
I don’t know if being gay is wrong. But it doesn’t change my treatment of any gay person which is always with love nor does it change Jesus’ message to them which is He loves them.
What ever transpires between their relationship is theirs. It’s not mine to judge or pick apart. The message of the Gospel doesn’t suffer because of it. He loves them, gay or not. The messsage doesn’t change nor the sacrifice on the cross.
I’ll let the good Lord be the condemer and judge because I’m not qualified.

melanie wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 10:12 am

Philip wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 9:56 am

I don’t know if being gay is wrong.

But that isn't really the question, is it? Having struggles against whatever sins we are attracted and tempted to commit - temptation is not sin (unless one causes it). But GIVING IN to certain things God says are sin - behavior and actions that God calls wrong - that is precisely what sin is. So, the question is, are homosexual behaviors and actions sin or not? Scripture repeatedly says it is wrong - even calling it an "abomination." Are those Scriptures WRONG - are they not God-given, by God's handpicked prophets and apostles - as we see a uniform teaching across the Bible about this. Note, there is not ONE Scriptural example of righteous behavior including gay activities or unions - actually, quite the opposite. So it matters not one hill of beans whether I or anyone else thinks this is sin or not. What should matter, is what God thinks about it! And no one taking Scripture seriously can deny God hates it. But he also hates adultery between heterosexuals, lusts of all manner for things that are not ours, or that are unhealthy for us. We are to love the sinner, hate the things God calls sin!

Read through this and the embedded, relevant Scriptures!

https://www.gotquestions.org/gay-marriage.html

I have to be honest that I find it really hypocritical that when the argument suits both you and Rick argue strongly why we now under the New Testament and not under the Law of the Old Testament.
We don’t get to pick and choose when that’s relevant. Either we are or we are not.
If you believe we are governed by the law of the Old Testament you’re entitled to that opinion but that’s not Christianity.

Mel,

I hope you're not saying that I think we are under OT law in certain instances, when it fits an argument I have. I thought I have been pretty clear that I hold the position that we are not under OT law, period.

I actually thought think I agree with your argument here. That's why I think it's important to make a distinction between "being gay", and "performing homosexual acts". I just cannot find any basis in scripture, for homosexual acts to be anything but wrong. But, I'm not one to jump down the throat of someone who struggles with homosexual desires. I really have no issue wishing everyone a happy life. I don't wish any ill will towards people that are gay. Similarly, I have no ill will towards someone who struggles with an addiction to drugs, or alcohol, even though I believe the abuse of either, is wrong.

melanie wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 10:41 am

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 10:36 am

melanie wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 10:27 am It’s a slippery slope. I’m not saying it’s not a sin as I said I don’t know but the couple of references in the Old Testament are on par with eating shellfish and working on the sabbath.
We pretty much allow both of those with an understanding of it being Old Testament teaching and not entirely relevant to today. Or at the very least not questionable to ones salvation.
Where do we draw that line? Scripture doesn’t really so we’ve done so ourselves? Let go what we don’t think is relevant and held onto what we think is? That’s very subjective.

Christ kept the Sabbath... Do you think we should ignore how God/Jesus acted while on earth? Wasn't there a huge WWJD movement that started not too far back in history? I think that is a great question to ask.

But you still haven't answered my question...which is the real topic.
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Actually I replied in length if you scroll back but I’ll repost;

Christ’s image, the image of God reflects and represents all of us. We are all born in the image of God without exception. All born equal under His Grace.
We are not born perfect nor without flaw but on even ground in the eyes of Our Father. By that token we are judged, as we all will be based on our measure and rod we use against others.
How harshly we judge others will be the rod used to judge us.
Forgiveness is Gods language and it has no bounds for its based on love and Gods love is limitless so it’s without fear.
So it’s not in fear that I reserve my judgement of others but in humility of how far I fall in so many ways.
I don’t know if being gay is wrong. But it doesn’t change my treatment of any gay person which is always with love nor does it change Jesus’ message to them which is He loves them.
What ever transpires between their relationship is theirs. It’s not mine to judge or pick apart. The message of the Gospel doesn’t suffer because of it. He loves them, gay or not. The messsage doesn’t change nor the sacrifice on the cross.
I’ll let the good Lord be the condemer and judge because I’m not qualified.

I did reply to that post.

Respectfully, I don't think you answered my specific question. But see the reply and let me know.
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Mel: If you believe we are governed by the law of the Old Testament you’re entitled to that opinion but that’s not Christianity.

Uh, Mel - this teaching is carried over into the New Testament, particularly by Paul, in Romans. This is not a dietary or ceremonial law that was not for all time, that was later allowed when Christians were freed from many such stipulations. Nuances matter. But these teachings blanket the entire Bible.

Romans 1: 26 "For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."

This is God's handpicked apostle led by the Holy Spirit speaking the above. And he's not breaking new ground with a new teaching, but is further fleshing out teachings across the OT and echoed in the NT. In fact, he's detailing how people originally (and still do) fell into such behaviors. So are we to ignore all such passages? Do we call unsinful things God clearly says ARE? Wow, hope not. And just because one isn't certain about something that has considerable evidence to suggest God considers it sin, why in the world would one try to justify it? Or say it doesn't really matter? And if one disagrees with the many Scriptures about this, upon what basis? God never meant that, nor wanted it written down? He wasn't in control of His word? He was unconcerned with whatever false things got blended into His word? He doesn't have the power to control His word? What? Because it's either wrong or it's true. If it's wrong, WHY???!!! Because these are very clearly stated - the related passages are nowhere near murky or unclear.

melanie wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 10:38 am

Stu wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 10:21 am

melanie wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 10:03 am Like how it’s an abomination to eat sea creatures without fin or scale so crab, lobster, squid and calamari. Plus bacon and pork.
Or to approach a menstruating female.
Or all insects that crawl on all fours.
An unfit animal for slaughter.
All work and employment on the sabbath.
Getting divorced ect and so on

I don’t think it’s so cut and dry because by those standards we’ve all committed an abomination.
Secondly we are no longer under the law but set free by Jesus

So once you've sinned and asked for forgiveness, you just carry on sinning again?
The New Testament makes about 3 references to homosexuality being wrong, and says that they shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Homosexuality in the New Testament

Do I need give the very long list of what else is considered sinful in the Old Testament and by the standard of they shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven? Many things that we all knowingly do, some regretfully and some not so at all.
If people believe it’s inherently wrong they are entitled to that opinion. But it’s not really fair to pick and choose which Old Testament Law is still relevant whilst brazenly not adhering to clearly written scripture in regards to other issues.
Either we must adhere to all Old Testament Law or we don’t. Otherwise it’s a subjective pick choosey scenario which is in my opinion hypocritical.

Why do you keep on ignoring the NEW TESTAMENT references to homosexuality being wrong? Again, NEW TESTAMENT.

Notice, now, days later, the Pope has still not clarified nor corrected whether his private comments to the abused man were incorrectly conveyed and reported. Wonder why? Because it's a huge issue! So much that it has great potential to split off parts of the church - read about that here: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-cathol ... 1527009408.

Does the Pope really think God once detested homosexual activities so much that it was an act punishable by death in the OT, and yet now He's supposedly cool with it? Or is the Pope not disingenuously morphing the commendable desire to show love and compassion with the warped idea that what was once considered a sin so terrible that God Himself singled it out as indicative of a far deeper heart issue, and yet He's somehow supposedly changed His values to get with the times? This is the problem that happens when some church teaches a human being has the right to make new doctrinal or Scriptural teachings - as if God Himself had spoke them!

I think Mel's point is that the same way other laws are now invalid so is the one against Hs. The same way people don't consider divorce or some other sin as abominable anymore. Issues like these weren't the focus of the authors.

That being said, while I support gay marriage and rights, I think to make a case for hs from the Bible is very weak. It's quite clear that the scriptures consider it a sin. Although the gospels are quiet about it, Paul isn't.

And Phil, all sin is a matter of deeper heart issue. So don't single this one out.

neo-x wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 5:11 am I think Mel's point is that the same way other laws are now invalid so is the one against Hs. The same way people don't consider divorce or some other sin as abominable anymore. Issues like these weren't the focus of the authors.

That being said, while I support gay marriage and rights, I think to make a case for hs from the Bible is very weak. It's quite clear that the scriptures consider it a sin. Although the gospels are quiet about it, Paul isn't.

And Phil, all sin is a matter of deeper heart issue. So don't single this one out.

How can you support gay marriage? The Bible clearly states that marriage is between a man and a women.

Mark 10:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

What therefore God hath joined together... It clearly says what God has joined together - do you think God is going to join two men together knowing that they will more than likely commit sodomy.

Stu wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 5:19 am

neo-x wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 5:11 am I think Mel's point is that the same way other laws are now invalid so is the one against Hs. The same way people don't consider divorce or some other sin as abominable anymore. Issues like these weren't the focus of the authors.

That being said, while I support gay marriage and rights, I think to make a case for hs from the Bible is very weak. It's quite clear that the scriptures consider it a sin. Although the gospels are quiet about it, Paul isn't.

And Phil, all sin is a matter of deeper heart issue. So don't single this one out.

How can you support gay marriage? The Bible clearly states that marriage is between a man and a women.

Mark 10:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

What therefore God hath joined together... It clearly says what God has joined together - do you think God is going to join two men together knowing that they will more than likely commit sodomy.

My reasons are different from religion. I live in a country where I am marginalized and I don't have equal rights. And I can see the underlying logic that denies me mine based on a religion. So I disagree in principle with laws that have to be enforced on people because they don't support the enforced religion and that is why I support it.