Evidence for God from Science

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:57 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:25 am

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:12 am

DBowling wrote:
I am unaware of any Scripture that supports the premise that a person who is truly born again can stop believing in Jesus.

Wouldn’t that be apostasy?

Do you have a Scriptural example of what you are referring to?

Let me repeat this question from earlier in thread.
It would help my understanding of your position if you would provide a Scriptural example that supports your understanding of 'apostacy'.

The Greek word apostasia is only used twice that I’m aware of, in the NT. I’ve always understood it to mean- a falling away from the truth, or forsaking a belief previously held. 1 John 2:19 doesn’t even mention apostasy, so that’s why I’m a little perplexed about how you got apostasy from that passage.

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:12 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:57 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:25 am

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:12 am

DBowling wrote:
I am unaware of any Scripture that supports the premise that a person who is truly born again can stop believing in Jesus.

Wouldn’t that be apostasy?

Do you have a Scriptural example of what you are referring to?

Let me repeat this question from earlier in thread.
It would help my understanding of your position if you would provide a Scriptural example that supports your understanding of 'apostacy'.

The Greek word apostasia is only used twice that I’m aware of, in the NT.

Correct...
Here are the two verses in the NT that use the Greek word apostasia
Acts 21:21

21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.

2 Thes 2:3

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

In Acts 21:21 the NIV translates apostasia as "turn away"
In 2 Thes 2:3 the NIV translates apostasia as "rebellion"

I think it is significant that neither of the NT uses of the Greek word apostasia refers to a "born again person who has stopped believing in Jesus"

I’ve always understood it to mean- a falling away from the truth, or forsaking a belief previously held.

That's a pretty accurate understanding.
Strong's defines apostasia as a defection or revolt.
Falling away is another common definition for apostasia

1 John 2:19 doesn’t even mention apostasy, so that’s why I’m a little perplexed about how you got apostasy from that passage.

As I demonstrate above neither of the two verses in the NT that use the word apostasia even address the premise of whether or not someone who has been born again can stop believing in Jesus.

However 1 John 2:19 does give a Scriptural example of people falling away ("going out from us") and it speaks directly to whether or not they were truly born again with the statement...
"For if they had belonged to us (ie if they had truly been followers of Jesus), they would have remained with us (ie they would not have fallen away)".

In the link Philip refers to earlier in this thread
https://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/ ... iever.html
Rich Deem (from our host site) makes the following observation regarding 1 John 2:19

Verse 19 completely refutes the whole concept that eternal security skeptics proclaim, saying that those who "turn away" from the "faith" were actually never really part of it:
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)
You will never find that verse quoted by eternal security skeptics!

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:31 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:12 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:57 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:25 am

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:12 am
Wouldn’t that be apostasy?

Do you have a Scriptural example of what you are referring to?

Let me repeat this question from earlier in thread.
It would help my understanding of your position if you would provide a Scriptural example that supports your understanding of 'apostacy'.

The Greek word apostasia is only used twice that I’m aware of, in the NT.

Correct...
Here are the two verses in the NT that use the Greek word apostasia
Acts 21:21

21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.

2 Thes 2:3

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

In Acts 21:21 the NIV translates apostasia as "turn away"
In 2 Thes 2:3 the NIV translates apostasia as "rebellion"

I think it is significant that neither of the NT uses of the Greek word apostasia refers to a "born again person who has stopped believing in Jesus"

I’ve always understood it to mean- a falling away from the truth, or forsaking a belief previously held.

That's a pretty accurate understanding.
Strong's defines apostasia as a defection or revolt.
Falling away is another common definition for apostasia

1 John 2:19 doesn’t even mention apostasy, so that’s why I’m a little perplexed about how you got apostasy from that passage.

As I demonstrate above neither of the two verses in the NT that use the word apostasia even address the premise of whether or not someone who has been born again can stop believing in Jesus.

However 1 John 2:19 does give a Scriptural example of people falling away ("going out from us") and it speaks directly to whether or not they were truly born again with the statement...
"For if they had belonged to us (ie if they had truly been followers of Jesus), they would have remained with us (ie they would not have fallen away)".

In the link Philip refers to earlier in this thread
https://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/ ... iever.html
Rich Deem (from our host site) makes the following observation regarding 1 John 2:19

Verse 19 completely refutes the whole concept that eternal security skeptics proclaim, saying that those who "turn away" from the "faith" were actually never really part of it:
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)
You will never find that verse quoted by eternal security skeptics!

I hear what you’re saying, and I’d like to think that believers with the indwelling Holy Spirit wouldn’t stop believing. But, it just doesn’t seem plausible that a believer could and have committed every other sin under the sun, but wouldn’t commit the sin of unbelief.

It really boils down to a No True Scotsman fallacy. No real believer would ever...

RickD wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:36 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:31 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:12 pm
1 John 2:19 doesn’t even mention apostasy, so that’s why I’m a little perplexed about how you got apostasy from that passage.

As I demonstrate above neither of the two verses in the NT that use the word apostasia even address the premise of whether or not someone who has been born again can stop believing in Jesus.

However 1 John 2:19 does give a Scriptural example of people falling away ("going out from us") and it speaks directly to whether or not they were truly born again with the statement...
"For if they had belonged to us (ie if they had truly been followers of Jesus), they would have remained with us (ie they would not have fallen away)".

In the link Philip refers to earlier in this thread
https://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/ ... iever.html
Rich Deem (from our host site) makes the following observation regarding 1 John 2:19

Verse 19 completely refutes the whole concept that eternal security skeptics proclaim, saying that those who "turn away" from the "faith" were actually never really part of it:
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)
You will never find that verse quoted by eternal security skeptics!

I hear what you’re saying, and I’d like to think that believers with the indwelling Holy Spirit wouldn’t stop believing. But, it just doesn’t seem plausible that a believer could and have committed every other sin under the sun, but wouldn’t commit the sin of unbelief.

From my perspective what Scripture says is more relevant than what I might consider to be plausible or implausible.

As I mention above, I have not seen any Scriptures that state that a born again person can stop believing in Jesus.

However, I have presented two Scriptures that state just the opposite.
For 1 John 2:19 I'll just defer to Rich Deem's observation

Verse 19 completely refutes the whole concept that eternal security skeptics proclaim, saying that those who "turn away" from the "faith" were actually never really part of it:
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)

However, when you dig into it Jesus basically says the same thing in John 3:18

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Jesus explicitly says that
- Those who believe IN Jesus have eternal life
- Those who do NOT believe IN Jesus do not have eternal life

If we presume that it is impossible to go from the state of having eternal life to the state of not having eternal life (which I agree with BTW)
Then
According to Jesus in John 3:18, it is equally impossible to go from the state of believing in Jesus to the state of not believing in Jesus.

DBowling wrote:
From my perspective what Scripture says is more relevant than what I might consider to be plausible or implausible.

From my perspective, when I speak of something consistent with scripture, I consider it plausible or implausible, precisely because it’s consistent or inconsistent with scripture.

DBowling wrote:
As I mention above, I have not seen any Scriptures that state that a born again person can stop believing in Jesus.

Have you seen any scripture that says a born again believer can steal, be a glutton, have other gods before God, etc.?

Born again believers commit sins. Unbelief and doubt certainly aren’t sins unknown to anyone. Once we start saying as believers, that we could never fall into a specific sin, that’s playing with fire.

DBowling wrote:

As I mention above, I have not seen any Scriptures that state that a born again person can stop believing in Jesus.

However, I have presented two Scriptures that state just the opposite.
For 1 John 2:19 I'll just defer to Rich Deem's observation

Verse 19 completely refutes the whole concept that eternal security skeptics proclaim, saying that those who "turn away" from the "faith" were actually never really part of it:
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)

As I stated before, 1 John 2:19 is not referring to believers who never fail to believe, and unbelievers who never believed. It’s referring to false teachers who left the apostles and the apostles’ teachings, to go off and teach false teachings.

DBowling wrote:
However, when you dig into it Jesus basically says the same thing in John 3:18
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Jesus explicitly says that
- Those who believe IN Jesus have eternal life
- Those who do NOT believe IN Jesus do not have eternal life

This is referring to those who have believed, and those who have never believed. It says nothing of those who believed, but may have stopped believing. Notice the part of the verse that says, “they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”

Those who believed, and stopped believing wouldn’t fall into that description, because they have believed at some point.

DBowling wrote:
If we presume that it is impossible to go from the state of having eternal life to the state of not having eternal life (which I agree with BTW)
Then
According to Jesus in John 3:18, it is equally impossible to go from the state of believing in Jesus to the state of not believing in Jesus.

No. The verse refers to those who believe, and those who have NEVER believed. It says nothing of anyone who believed, and stopped believing.

RickD wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:20 am

DBowling wrote:
As I mention above, I have not seen any Scriptures that state that a born again person can stop believing in Jesus.

Have you seen any scripture that says a born again believer can steal, be a glutton, have other gods before God, etc.?

Born again believers commit sins. Unbelief and doubt certainly aren’t sins unknown to anyone.

Agreed...

However...
By definition (Eph 2:8-9) Faith IN and/or Believing IN Jesus is not a 'work' and is different than any sin or 'work' (good or bad) that any person (believer or non-believer) can perform or not perform

DBowling wrote:

As I mention above, I have not seen any Scriptures that state that a born again person can stop believing in Jesus.

However, I have presented two Scriptures that state just the opposite.
For 1 John 2:19 I'll just defer to Rich Deem's observation

Verse 19 completely refutes the whole concept that eternal security skeptics proclaim, saying that those who "turn away" from the "faith" were actually never really part of it:
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)

As I stated before, 1 John 2:19 is not referring to believers who never fail to believe, and unbelievers who never believed. It’s referring to false teachers who left the apostles and the apostles’ teachings, to go off and teach false teachings.

That may be your perspective...
But I don't see in the Scriptural text where John limits his example exclusively to teachers who fall away as opposed to anyone who falls away?

DBowling wrote:
However, when you dig into it Jesus basically says the same thing in John 3:18
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Jesus explicitly says that
- Those who believe IN Jesus have eternal life
- Those who do NOT believe IN Jesus do not have eternal life

This is referring to those who have believed, and those who have never believed. It says nothing of those who believed, but may have stopped believing. Notice the part of the verse that says, “they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”

Those who believed, and stopped believing wouldn’t fall into that description, because they have believed at some point.

Again you are presuming a criteria that is absent from the Scriptural text

Jesus does not offer three options here...
Jesus mentions two and only two categories of people in John 3:18.
- Whoever believes in him
- whoever does not believe
And in this verse Jesus explicitly equates not believing (in the present) with having not believed (in the past)
Which is the same thing that John points out in 1 John 2:19

In the Scriptural text, Jesus doesn't give any wiggle room on this.
You either believe IN Jesus (present tense) or you don't (present tense)
And if you don't believe (present tense) it is because you "never believed in the name of God’s one and only Son (past tense)" either.