Evidence for God from Science

Kurieuo wrote:Hi Jason,

I'm just wondering what happened to the people living from Constantine's time until 1720 when the Father and Son manifested themselves to man and the Holy Priesthood restoring the church--were they all damned and hope in Christ thwarted for almost one and a half millenia?

Additionally, Jesus passed on His teaching to the Apostles, and the Apostles to other Christians, and so forth. The Early Church set in Constantine's time could trace itself back to the Apostles, and could therefore lay an authoritative claim of Apostolic authority. How is it you know God truely revealed himself to the "Holy Priesthood"? What can they provide to back their claims.

Kurieuo.

Kurieuo, hey friend!
Well i will tell you what has happend to all those good people, they have died and were unable to recive some of the sacred ordinances of the preistood because of the apostasy (which i will go over in a moment). But no fear! God is a fair and loving God so hope is not lost! There is a great work going on on the other side of the viel in the spirt world. That is why Christs restored church has geneology on mind and we must give everyone a chance to recieve those ordinances, hence baptisms for the dead. Everyone will be given a chance! no worries!

Many people have asked me, "why there is need for a Restoration?" In general i will explain. 2000 years ago a Man walked in this earth and organized a church and taught about love and the opportunity to go back to our home and live with our Father once again, there is plenty evidence of His presence here in this Earth, but after His Death and Resurrection the organized church came under severe atack externaly as well as internaly.
Persecution as an external cause Judaism and paganism array against the Church many apostles died under this persecution.
Romans were in opposition to Christianity under Nero, under Domitian, under Trajan, under Marcus Aurelious, and the finally Apostles and christians extintions by Diocletian, and the simplest truth, power, authority and the rock that The Church of Jesus Christ was setled upon was taking from this earth (St Mattew16:17-18).

Later the church in an apostated state came under state protection by Constantine the Great, and it is here when the internal causes of Apostasy came into play returning to idolatry, departure from christianity.
The corrupting of the simple principles of the gospel by the admixture of the so called philosophic systems of the times, judaistic perversions, admixtures\ of Gnosticism with christianity new platonics doctrine of the logos, sibellianism, arianism the Nicean creed, burning of sacred books, the creed of athanasius, perverted view of life, disregard for truth, unauthorized additions to the ceremonies of the church and the introduction of vital changes in essential ordinances, formalism and supertision increase, adoration of images, changes in Baptismal ordinance, ministrations of the exorcist introduced, Imersion substituted by sprinkling, infant baptism introduced, changes in the sacrament of the Lords supper, fallacy of transubstantiation and adoration of the host, unauthorized changes in church organization and government, origin of synods or church organization, bishops of Rome claimed supremacy, title of Poped assumed, secular authority asserted by the pope, indulgences or pardons the infamous doctrine of supererogation, the traffic in indulgence, tetzel the papal agent, the sin of blasphemy, scripture reading forbiding to the people, Draper's arraigment of the papacy.

Next came the revolts against of the church of Rome by John wickliffe in England, John Huss and Jerome of Prague, Martin Luther his revolt his excomunication, the protestans, Zwingle and calvin, the inquisition, separation or branches of the apostate church, fallacy of assuming human origen of divine authority etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.

Finally after 1720 years of universal apostasy, and the absolute need of a "Restoration of all things" The Father and the Son manifested themselves to man and the Holy Priesthood with all its powers and authority was again Restored with His church upon the ROCK (Revelation) once again, marking the inauguration of the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times which is the Last Dispensation and preparatory to receive Jesus Christ for second time, and been the Chieft Cornerstone of The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints where brothers and sisters come and partake the joy of the fullness of the Gospel Restored.

You do know that the books now accepted as apart the New Testiment canon, were not offically recognised according our knowledge up until 367AD where we know them to be defined within Athanasius' Easter letter? This would mean that the books that comprise the NT, books you yourself seem to have have come to accept, were likely officially accepted during a time of apostacy by apostates (according to your own beliefs). Thus, it seems reasonable they aren't to be trusted, yet it seems you do give them some authority? Perhaps people at this time were not fully apostate...

Additionally, God may be fair and loving, but if "all" Christians had turned apostate from Constantine's time (though I'm not sure in what sense you believe them to be apostate?), then it seems everyone during this period of apostacy would have been lost to God. Unless of course you believe some truely held to a true Christian belief, whatever that may be (?).

Also it appears you repeated a lot of what you already said. I'm still left wondering how we are to trust "the Holy Priesthood"? As I mentioned previously, at least the early Church in Constantine's time could claim Apostolic authority, and as such protect Christ's teachings against distortion by the Gnostics and the many heresies you've mentioned. Yet, "the Holy Priesthood" has nothing to prove its claims or beliefs except an appeal to themselves to accept what they say as true. If this is not the case, what reason is there to belief they truely did receive a divine revelation?

Kurieuo.

Let me ask you though, Kurieuo... (man, your name is hard to spell )

Does it really matter if some additional trust is place in some circa 1720 authority? As long as the ultimate authority rests with the acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Saviour, isn't everything else peripheral?

I suppose the danger is that members of the church fail to recognize that ultimate authority... In the same way that a good many of the Catholic church fail to recognize Jesus as Lord and Saviour, so too might many in the Mormom sect.

I'm playing devil's advocate for the moment, but I'd like to hear your thoughts...

Felgar wrote:Let me ask you though, Kurieuo... (man, your name is hard to spell )

Does it really matter if some additional trust is place in some circa 1720 authority? As long as the ultimate authority rests with the acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Saviour, isn't everything else peripheral?

I'll butt in...but let me know, this may not be what you are asking.

Matthew 7:21 NIV wrote:"Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Luke 6:46-47 NIV wrote:"Why do you call me, `Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? 47 I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice."

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Felgar wrote:Let me ask you though, Kurieuo... (man, your name is hard to spell )

Does it really matter if some additional trust is place in some circa 1720 authority? As long as the ultimate authority rests with the acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Saviour, isn't everything else peripheral?

I suppose the danger is that members of the church fail to recognize that ultimate authority... In the same way that a good many of the Catholic church fail to recognize Jesus as Lord and Saviour, so too might many in the Mormom sect.

I'm playing devil's advocate for the moment, but I'd like to hear your thoughts...

I'll second the butting . . .

This is what I was referring to in the OSAS thread about a misunderstanding of the doctrine landing a person in hell. I know where you are coming from because I used to say exactly the same thing, but, as my theology prof. puts it, "God saves by grace or not at all." You can't trust in Jesus and a little of something else, because that means 100% of your trust isn't in Him, which means that you don't trust Him 100%. That means you are trying to earn your salvation, which negates grace.

We really need to do a thread on that concept . . .

I do see the point Jac... But,

I think there's a distinction to be made between beliefs and traditions/actions. For instance, Mennonites are very conservative about their dating practices, dress, etc. Whereas some other denomination may not be. Neither group should be considered 'lost.' In a sense, we are putting some 'trust' (not Faith, but trust) in the guidance provided by each denomination, etc.

I guess the question becomes where is the line between what is reasonable direction from the church body, and at what point have we started to forget exactly why we are saved.

Kurieuo wrote:You do know that the books now accepted as apart the New Testiment canon, were not offically recognised according our knowledge up until 367AD where we know them to be defined within Athanasius' Easter letter? This would mean that the books that comprise the NT, books you yourself seem to have have come to accept, were likely officially accepted during a time of apostacy by apostates (according to your own beliefs). Thus, it seems reasonable they aren't to be trusted, yet it seems you do give them some authority? Perhaps people at this time were not fully apostate....

K, yes I believe in the NT, as long as it is translated/Interpreted correctly. The apostacy I speak of was a loss of Gods Power/Priestood from the earth...Now, the authority thing..., not all truths were lost so of course they had some doctrine correct, in fact im sure they had most correct untill they started changing things, as i stated previously...


Kurieuo= Additionally, God may be fair and loving, but if "all" Christians had turned apostate from Constantine's time (though I'm not sure in what sense you believe them to be apostate?), then it seems everyone during this period of apostacy would have been lost to God. Unless of course you believe some truely held to a true Christian belief, whatever that may be (?).

There were many good people and God knows the heart of all men, if they were following there corrupt leaders who they thought had the "athourity" of God then the sin is on the head of those leaders. They couldnt even read the Bible so of course they were not lost to God... no one is lost except sons of perdition. And for all those people, like i said before we can preform there ordinaces for them!


Kurieuo= Also it appears you repeated a lot of what you already said. I'm still left wondering how we are to trust "the Holy Priesthood"? As I mentioned previously, at least the early Church in Constantine's time could claim Apostolic authority, and as such protect Christ's teachings against distortion by the Gnostics and the many heresies you've mentioned. Yet, "the Holy Priesthood" has nothing to prove its claims or beliefs except an appeal to themselves to accept what they say as true. If this is not the case, what reason is there to belief they truely did receive a divine revelation?

Kurieuo.

As for Gods Holy Priesthood, I have many books that speak of miracles performed by our leaders and our membership. I have the testimonies of the people who have healed by the power of the Priesthood, but you would disregard them anyway.
No other Church today resembles the oringinal church. Paul siad, " our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake." (1 Thes. 1 :5) Yet he told the Galatians (1:6-8) that even if an angel from heaven were to preach another gospel, he would be accursed. Yet your gospel comes in word only and yet each churhc has a different gospel interpretation. There are so many gospels and none of them come in power and in the Holy Ghost, and in the assurance.

Felgar wrote:Does it really matter if some additional trust is place in some circa 1720 authority? As long as the ultimate authority rests with the acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Saviour, isn't everything else peripheral?

Who do Mormons claim Christ to be, and do they really accept Christ as personal Lord and Saviour, who being God took on our human nature, or do they take Christ simply as someone we all can be like? I have not looked into Mormonism much, but from what I have read they do not really accept Christ and the gospel in the same way we would. They might use similar sounding words and so forth, but the intended meaning is totally different.

Now people can accept many strange beliefs and still be saved, and they do. Yet, when the truth behind Christ and the crucial good news to do with Him, God, and us becomes distorted, then you're not messing with secondary doctrines of little importance to salvation, you're messing with a core doctrine of why Jesus came to live here and die for us. Additionally, any organisation claiming special priviledged to God ought to be able to prove their connection if they are to be taken as authoritative. Jesus Himself even never claimed divine authority without offering evidence of His claims. As said in 1 John 4:1, we ought to test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because there have been, and will continue to be, many false prophets.

Kurieuo.

Jasonstudley27 wrote:There were many good people and God knows the heart of all men, if they were following there corrupt leaders who they thought had the "athourity" of God then the sin is on the head of those leaders. They couldnt even read the Bible so of course they were not lost to God... no one is lost except sons of perdition. And for all those people, like i said before we can preform there ordinaces for them!

This "goodness" is one doctrine crucial to my understanding of salvation in Christ, and I point it out to perhaps show a difference between our beliefs. If there were truly many "good" people, then Christ's life, death and resurrection is of no consequence for we can still attain the same goodness of Christ all by ourselves. On the other hand, Christ said that only God is good (Luke 18:19), and elsewhere we are told that all have sinned, and continue to struggle with sin and fall short of God's standard (Romans 3:23; 7:21-25).

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly [i.e., for "you", "I", and "everyone"]. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners [i.e., humanity], Christ died for us. (Romans 5:6-8)

Kurieuo.

Kurieuo wrote:

Felgar wrote:Does it really matter if some additional trust is place in some circa 1720 authority? As long as the ultimate authority rests with the acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Saviour, isn't everything else peripheral?

Who do Mormons claim Christ to be, and do they really accept Christ as personal Lord and Saviour, who being God took on our human nature, or do they take Christ simply as someone we all can be like? I have not looked into Mormonism much, but from what I have read they do not really accept Christ and the gospel in the same way we would. They might use similar sounding words and so forth, but the intended meaning is totally different.

Now people can accept many strange beliefs and still be saved, and they do. Yet, when the truth behind Christ and the crucial good news to do with Him, God, and us becomes distorted, then you're not messing with secondary doctrines of little importance to salvation, you're messing with a core doctrine of why Jesus came to live here and die for us. Additionally, any organisation claiming special priviledged to God ought to be able to prove their connection if they are to be taken as authoritative. Jesus Himself even never claimed divine authority without offering evidence of His claims. As said in 1 John 4:1, we ought to test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because there have been, and will continue to be, many false prophets.

Kurieuo.

First of all Latter Day Saints believe that God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ are two separate beings, but one in purpose and unity. As it states in the Bible., Acts 7:55-56 when Stephen saw both the Father and the Son. How could Stephen have seen two personages, and yet Christ teach one? It's an easy answer--Christ taught that they were two, and that he was separate from his Father. In John 8:17-18 Christ spoke with the Jews, who accused Christ of being an imposter because he was the only one that bore witness of himself. It is a rule in Jewish Law that the testimony of two witnesses or three was true. Christ replied, "It is also written in your law that the testimony of TWO MEN is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and The Father that sent me beareth witness of me." Here Christ compared himself and his Father to two men. Christ states in John 10:30 that he and his Father are one, but in John 17 20-21 he explained what he meant when he said, praying to the Father, "that they may be one, (reffering to his disciples (sorry not us as i said before.)), Father, as thou are in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us, that the world may believe that thou has sent me." I chanllenge you to take this scripture literally also. Hre Christ prayed that his disciples would be one "as he and His Father are one." they were one, but one in purpose and unity.

When the Father bore witness that Christ was the Son of God in Matthew 16: 15-19, it was Christ who said "Blessed are thou, Simon Barjona; for FLESH AND BLOOD hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." Christ at this time had a body of flesh and blood yet told Peter that flesh and blood had not born that witness, but his Heavenly Father. In answer to John 14:12, when he declared, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth in me, the works that I do shall he so also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." Why would he go unto his Father if he were the Father? This teaching is abominable. It would be so senseless for Christ in the 26th Chapter of Matthew to pray to the Father and ask if the "bitter cup" might be removed, if he were the Father. What mockery it would have been in Gethsemane to pray unto himself, being the Father. After his resurrection, he told Mary Magdaline not to touch him for "I have not yet ascended to my Father." (John 20:17) Also Jesus said only his Father in Heaven knows when Jesus will come again. Now, if Jesus real is the Father, why didnt he know when he was coming again; furthermore, when Christ was baptized a voice from the heaven said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." The example of the Father and Son as two seprate people is to obvious to even debate.


You question our belief in Christ? I can tell you what I have learned, know and have been taught…. “We” know and accept Christ as our Lord, Savior and King! He is our lighthouse who will guide us back to our Father. He is our oldest brother who loved lived and died for the sins of all! He is the corner stone of “our” Church! He is a living God who still gives his children revelation in the later days! We love him and we worship him! Any confusion?

Kurieuo wrote:

Jasonstudley27 wrote:There were many good people and God knows the heart of all men, if they were following there corrupt leaders who they thought had the "athourity" of God then the sin is on the head of those leaders. They couldnt even read the Bible so of course they were not lost to God... no one is lost except sons of perdition. And for all those people, like i said before we can preform there ordinaces for them!

This "goodness" is one doctrine crucial to my understanding of salvation in Christ, and I point it out to perhaps show a difference between our beliefs. If there were truly many "good" people, then Christ's life, death and resurrection is of no consequence for we can still attain the same goodness of Christ all by ourselves. On the other hand, Christ said that only God is good (Luke 18:19), and elsewhere we are told that all have sinned, and continue to struggle with sin and fall short of God's standard (Romans 3:23; 7:21-25).

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly [i.e., for "you", "I", and "everyone"]. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners [i.e., humanity], Christ died for us. (Romans 5:6-8)

Kurieuo.

I'm still not really sure what your question is but, We are all sinners ever since the fall of adam... "For the natural man is an enemy to God". But we are all still his children and he knows if we are doing all we can to follow him. Know man can have the same "goodness" of Christ, Christ was perfect, perfection for us is doing all we can to try to find and follow Christ.

Jason wrote:Know man can have the same "goodness" of Christ, Christ was perfect, perfection for us is doing all we can to try to find and follow Christ.

Is Christ a created being like us, who we can all be like?

Kurieuo.

Kurieuo wrote:

Jason wrote:Know man can have the same "goodness" of Christ, Christ was perfect, perfection for us is doing all we can to try to find and follow Christ.

Is Christ a created being like us, who we can all be like?

Kurieuo.

Christ is a son of our Heavenly Father, He is the Only Begotten of the flesh, and he is now a Glorified being at his Fathers side... and yes we can become Glorified beings at our Fathers side as well.

What do you mean by "Only Begotten"? Also is it true LDS believe that God, the Father of us all (wouldn't this also make us "begotten"?), was once a man like us?

Kurieuo.

Kurieuo wrote:What do you mean by "Only Begotten"? Also is it true LDS believe that God, the Father of us all (wouldn't this also make us "begotten"?), was once a man like us?

Kurieuo.

Christ was God the Fathers, Only Begotten of the flesh, in that he was Christs Mortal father via the virgin Marry. We are all Heavenly Fathers children in Spirt but in body we are our parents children.

Can we become Like Christ?
Well if we read the Bible, In 1 John 3:1-3 He tells us the sons of God will become like Christ, "but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him" this clearly is speaking of the second coming of Christ. When he comes again "we shall be like him". Further more, Revelations 3:21 states "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Did not Christ overcome, and become a glorified, and resurrected being; a God, like his Father? Paul speaking to the Galations tells us of our potential in Gal. 4 1-7 he speaks of us being the Sons of God through the power of Christ, "if a son, then an heir of God through Christ". Paul speaking to the Romans tells us we are Joint-heir's to God through Christ in Romans 8:16-17 we find that we will be "joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." So if we repent (suffer with him) we will be joint heirs and be "glorified together". How much more clear can the Bible be with us? Open your eyes and realize your potential. If you still dont realize your potential just say and I can point out some more scriptures.

Here are some other Scriptures that tell us we are heirs to all that God has.
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
(Old Testament | Genesis 1:26)

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(Old Testament | Genesis 1:27)

22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
(Old Testament | Genesis 3:22)


3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

(New Testament | 2 Peter 1:3 - 4)


15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

(New Testament | Colossians 1:15 - 18)


16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

(New Testament | Ephesians 3:16 - 19)


13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:13)


1 THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

(New Testament | John 17:1 - 26)


2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

(New Testament | 1 John 3:2)


34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

(New Testament | John 10:34 - 35)


6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

(New Testament | Galatians 4:6 -


19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

(New Testament | Romans 8:19 - 23)


22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

(New Testament | Hebrews 12:22 - 23)


21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

(New Testament | Revelation 3:21)

Was God once a man?
God Man?
In John 8:17-18 Christ compared He and His father to “two men.” Both “men” bore witness to His divinity. I am sure we will agree to Christ's human aspects while in the flesh. He was a human being like you and I. Only He had Godship within Him. We read in John 5:19, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these ALSO DOETH THE SON LIKEWISE.” We read also in the scriptures, “As the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself (John 5:26)
What was Jesus going to do? The answer is so obvious. John 10:17-18 tells us, “therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.” This is why the prophet taught these truths. Christ said He could do nothing of Himself, but only that which He had seen His Father do. In this passage we read where He was to take his body, lay it down, and take it up again. There's your answer from the Bible. It's for you to accept or reject, but it is true, and it is from the mouth of Christ. Notice, his was the same identical power as that of the Father.