Evidence for God from Science

vvart wrote:That site is actually great, frankly it answers your question about how Jews have known Isaiah is talking about Israel basically for quite some time. Had Jews ever thought of Isaiah 52/53 as being a suffering Messiah, then they wouldn't really have had a problem with Jesus and some Rabbi's would definitely have commented on it in the Talmud. However, we don't find such a reference anywhere.

Yes Mastermind, i'm interpretating the Micah verse even though all i did was read it and know a little bit of history. Look frankly i don't expect you to change your mind because whenever i talk to Christians about this they just tell me "you don't faith", or "you've been blinded by the Jews".

I find it silly to think that the Jews, who have known God and even had God explain them the meaning of the written Torah through the Oral Torah (aka Midrash), don't know what they are talking about. It's afterall THEIR texts.

Anyhow lemme make things more clear for you:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore. (ezekiel 37: 24-28)

Ok the very beginning of this states that the messiah will make everyone follow God's statutes. However Jesus renounces Kosher, which although wasn't necessary for the gentiles, was very much one of God's statutes.
Also same goes for many of the Torah laws which Christians don't follow yet are clearly God's statutes.

Next we have the fact that Jesus was not perfect, the best example of him committing a sin is when Jesus argues with his Elders. This is strictly prohibited in the Torah, which would make it a sin for any man to commit and since you claim Jesus was a man, it would be inaccurate to say he was perfect. Not to mention Jesus cannot be a high priest of any sort as he wasn't a Levite, which is a requirement.

There's much more, but basically I also have been doing some research about Jesus fulfilling the most basic of the Prophecies which is that the messiah will be a seed of David and Solomon.

First off I want to say how unreliable Christian think-tank is and how Christians use it as if it contains some kind of Truth Jews aren't privy too.
Have you looked into the credentials of the person who operates that website?

Education: BS, MS in Computer Science // BA, ThM in theology // one year+ toward a Ph.D. in philosophy (never to finish, looks like).
The person who operates and runs this website is basically only educated in computer science.[/quote[

He has a ThM in theology. These are degrees that are awarded, in fact, you can buy them off the internet. Also he doesn't mention where he went to school anywhere, which makes me suspicious. You always have to check out sources like this.
It seemed to catch me the most with the Jesus lineage thing, where he quoted one apologetic book that doesn't match Jewish law at all. Let me give you the previous website that you looked at and it does a great job of covering the Jews law concerning inheritance.

http://www.messiahtruth.com/jesusgen.html

Yes, the messiahtruth site uses the KJV for the NT, because it is the most commonly used version by Christians. It uses the artscroll tanach for the OT. However, you can go to biblegateway.com and translate any verse you don't like in the KJV to virtually any version, and you'll still have the same conclusion as that provided on the messiahtruth.com website.

Also it is very important to research your sources, and make sure they provide reliable information. For example, I would trust a hebrew-speaking Jew with a PhD in biblical languages to tell me if Jesus met the requirements before I would trust a computer salesman with a BA and a DivM.

Whether Jesus was born of a virgin or not, he fails to fulfill some of the most important requirements to be the JEWISH messiah as according to Jewish law.

vvart wrote:Ok mastermind i'll give you a much better source to look at, this guy pretty much uses the Tanach, basically the english bible has been tweaked a little bit to make it sound like its Jesus

vvart wrote:Kurieuo, i never converted to Judaism, I would be considered a Noahide. One who follows the covenant God made with Noah and his offspring, the gentiles, are explained in this site:

vvart wrote:Also I find no problems with Jesus's geneology as I don't believe Jesus was born of a virgin, so as far as i'm concerned he fulfilled that Prophecy, however all we have is he rode on a donkey and he's a descendant of David.

vvart wrote:I'm sorry but many people at the time of Jesus could easily fulfill these two requirements.

vvart wrote:Also Kurieuo, you can't simple use the resurrection to mean someone is the messiah. Elijah asked God to resurrect a dead boy and God did, does this mean that boy is the messiah?

vvart wrote:NO, in fact i really have no problem with Jesus resurrecting, it just means God used Jesus for a purpose. This purpose obviously is multi-faceted, but part of it would be to bring the gentiles closer to the Truth being the Torah/Tanach.

• If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
  6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.

vvart wrote:well I wouldn't say it does because as long as I give myself to Jesus, then he will make me new again. Of course being morally upright is not about committing sin and then looking to Jesus for forgiveness, but rather its working with Jesus so that you won't need to sin. We will never succeed, but its the process of allowing Jesus to guide us closer to a righteous(sinless) life. I'm not always morally upright, but what still makes me a good person, i feel, is that I acknowledge I've made a mistake and ask Jesus for forgiveness, trying never to make that same mistake twice.

vvart wrote:I just want to make something very clear..YOU CAN'T INTERPRET PARTS OF THE BIBLE WITHOUT APPLYING THE TRINITY! ok let me clarify:

Ok lets examine this with the trinity which i will briefly explain and there is an extensive explanation by Rich Deem on the website. Ok, Jesus is fully man and fully divine.

I also don't wanna hear arguments against the trinity because it fits with literally every verse in the bible.

Kurieuo wrote:

vvart wrote:Kurieuo, i never converted to Judaism, I would be considered a Noahide. One who follows the covenant God made with Noah and his offspring, the gentiles, are explained in this site:

For those here unfamiliar, I found a page on what Noahide's consider Jesus to be: http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm

vvart wrote:Mastermind,

if you want to hold to your belief that Isaiah is talking about a suffering messiah, fine, even though it doesn't fit in with all the other messianic prophecies.

I feel there is a stronger case for it being Israel, but lets assume it is talking about a suffering messiah for a second. I have a question for you. Do you realize that their were many so called "messiah's" during the time of Jesus and majority of them suffered and died in some manner. Many of them were also descendants of David and fulfilled that requirement much better than Jesus, yet you don't seem to side with them do you? even though Isaiah as you claim is talking about a suffering messiah could be applied for them as well. That's why Messiah has to fulfill all criteria, otherwise you get lots of possible messiah's.

"God rewrites his covenants whenever there is need. It states in the verses you quoted that God will make a covenant of peace with them. Don't you dare tell me God "doesn't change" as if that has any effect on which covenant He chooses based on what He KNOWS is best for the people at that time. "

Actually not really, its not so much a matter of God changing as it is the covenant.

Isaiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

This site will explain it all:
http://www.messiahtruth.com/newcov.html

No, perhaps you are just misunderstanding the prophets. I don't claim to know everything they speak of however, which is why i go to the Jews who obviously can give me a better understanding of their own texts. Plus your again assuming the prophecies have an added prophetic meaning to them simple because you think Jesus to be the Messiah. Such circular reasoning isn't proof for anything.

Anyone of the rulers of Israel could fit this criteria (David, Solomon). However, I don't see what your getting at here.

Anyhow the case for Jesus being the Messiah is weak at best and frankly Christianity has the most flawed theology in which people are condemned not because of evil deeds, but because they simply have a different religion. Judaism however is very practical in such a situation and always has been in that they know one's beliefs cannot condemn them. Most Christians are christian because they are born into it and feel snug in believing they will go to heaven and others will go to hell. The fact is God is very aware that people come to their beliefs because of life experiences, family, culture, etc. so as far as the afterlife is concerned He looks at what type of a person one is rather than what beliefs they have grown up with and come to adopt.

vvart wrote:Um no you have me way off, I don't have a problem with Jesus and as i've stated i think Jesus was a good thing, that still doesn't make him Messiah. You seem to forget what i'm arguing against.

vvart wrote:"Did the boy claim to be able to forgive sins? Did the boy claim to be the only way to God? Did the boy claim to be I AM? Who resurrected the boy, Elijah or God? Resurrection from the dead is only possible through God. As God resurrected Christ, this means God approved of Christ's teachings. And so if God can be trusted, then Christ can be trusted."

This is quite a flawed statement in that your assuming that just because God resurrected the boy then it would mean everything the boy spoke of would be endorsed by God and thus would be truth. Sorry, but I'm not gonna believe that the boy God resurrected is now a beacon of truth, speaking only the words of God. Also your assuming that the Gospels are 100 percent reliable and then using that to prove Jesus as the Messiah. It can't possible work that way as there were many Jews cults and we can't use their writing to prove that the cult was right about everything.

vvart wrote:"Now you appear to misunderstand the dual nature many prophecies have. That is, they may tell something about certain circumstances at the time of their being written, but they can also appear confusing if "only" related to the direct context they were written in. Thus, while many prophecies may relate to Israel, they also have a prophetic meaning to be applied to a future event."

No, perhaps you are just misunderstanding the prophets. I don't claim to know everything they speak of however, which is why i go to the Jews who obviously can give me a better understanding of their own texts. Plus your again assuming the prophecies have an added prophetic meaning to them simple because you think Jesus to be the Messiah. Such circular reasoning isn't proof for anything.

Targum Jonathan
The prophet announced to the house of David that: "A boy has been born to us, a son has been given unto us, who has taken the Torah upon himself to guard it; and his name has been called by the One who gives wonderful counsel, the Mighty God, He who lives forever: 'Messiah,' in whose day peace shall abound for us.

Pereq Shalom
R . Yose the Galilean said: "The name of the Messiah is Peace, for it is said, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Midrash Mishle, S. Buber edition
T he Messiah is called by eight names: Yinnon, Tzemah, Pele ["Miracle"], Yo'etz ["Counselor"], Mashiah ["Messiah"], El ["God"], Gibbor ["Hero"], and Avi 'Ad Shalom ["Eternal Father of Peace"]

vvart wrote:"Now can you tell me who has ruled over Israel who is "from of old" and from "everlasting" or "ancient times"?"

Anyone of the rulers of Israel could fit this criteria (David, Solomon). However, I don't see what your getting at here.

vvart wrote:Anyhow the case for Jesus being the Messiah is weak at best and frankly Christianity has the most flawed theology in which people are condemned not because of evil deeds, but because they simply have a different religion.

Kurieuo wrote:I'd agree that the current system is unfair for all deserve the same end—to be outcast from God. Yet, God used something foolish to those who don't believe, to offer grace to those who do. That is, God used Christ who died in our place to redeem those who accept such a gift from their own sin. All one has to do is choose to accept this gift.

Now imagine two clubs. One says people can only come if they have earned membership. To earn membership one must obtain superior wisdom, fulfill a long list of demands, or acheive a certain level of spirituality. Despite the best efforts of many a lot of people aren't going to gain membership and will be excluded. That is generally what all other religions besides Christianity teach. You must do something to earn your way to God.

On the other hand, the second club says anyone who wants to come in can because Jesus has already paid for your membership. Regardless of ethnic heritage, where you live, or your past history... the doors are open and anyone can come in. Entry is not based on qualifications, but only accepting Christ's gracious gift. What could be fairer to all? The matter is left up to each of us to decide. The question is, what will you ultimately decide?

vvart wrote:Judaism however is very practical in such a situation and always has been in that they know one's beliefs cannot condemn them.

vvart wrote:Most Christians are christian because they are born into it and feel snug in believing they will go to heaven and others will go to hell. The fact is God is very aware that people come to their beliefs because of life experiences, family, culture, etc. so as far as the afterlife is concerned He looks at what type of a person one is rather than what beliefs they have grown up with and come to adopt.

That the Jews recognized this as a Messianic prophecy is also evident from the fact that the priests and scribes of Herod's day knew that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem on the basis of this prophecy (Mt. 2:5, 6). Thus, the common Jewish belief at the time of Christ was that they "unanimously regarded this passage as containing a prophecy of the birth of the Messiah in Bethlehem."103 This is proven by Matthew 2:5, 6 and John 7:42.

—http://www.johnankerberg.com/Articles/A ... 103-13.htm (recommend)

Kurieuo wrote:Oh... I left out commenting on Micah 5:2 which was also considered prophectic by early Jewish interpreters as Messianic.

Targum of Jonathan says: "And thou, Bethlehem of Ephrathah, little art thou to be reckoned among the thousands of the house of Judah; out of thee shall proceed in my presence the Messiah to exercise sovereignty over Israel; whose name has been called from eternity, from the days of the everlasting."

Rabbi Jarchi comments, "Thou art little... out of thee shall come forth to me King Messiah."

Also commented in an article at the Ankerberg website:

That the Jews recognized this as a Messianic prophecy is also evident from the fact that the priests and scribes of Herod's day knew that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem on the basis of this prophecy (Mt. 2:5, 6). Thus, the common Jewish belief at the time of Christ was that they "unanimously regarded this passage as containing a prophecy of the birth of the Messiah in Bethlehem."103 This is proven by Matthew 2:5, 6 and John 7:42.

—http://www.johnankerberg.com/Articles/A ... 103-13.htm (recommend)

Kurieuo.

vvart wrote:1) Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.

vvart wrote:Recently I was reading some stuff against the Gospel and I came upon this, would you guys read it over and tell me what you think:

Prophecies to Identify the Messiah, Which Jesus Does Not Fulfill:

1) Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.

2) The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.

3) Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.

4) The gospels (especially Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9. But the next few verses (Zechariah 9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea". Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.[/b]

(Zechariah 9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea".

Since Jesus had neither an armynor akingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.

5) Matthew (Matthew 2:17-18) quotes Jeremiah (Jeremiah 31:15), claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod's alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this passage refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (Jeremiah 31:16-17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod's massacre.

6) John 19:33 says that during Jesus' crucifixion, the soldiers didn't break his legs because he was already dead. Verse John 19:36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: "Not a bone of him shall be broken." But there is no such prophecy. It is sometimes said that the prophecy appears in Exodus 12:46, Numbers 9:12 & Psalm 34:20. This is not correct. Exodus 12:46 & Numbers 9:12 are not prophecies, they are commandments. The Israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb, and this is all it is about.

This is not correct. Exodus 12:46 & Numbers 9:12 are not prophecies, they are commandments. The Israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb, and this is all it is about.

7) "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." Hosea 11:1. Matthew (Matthew 2:15) claims that the flight of Jesus' family to Egypt is a fulfillment of this verse. But Hosea 11:1 is not a prophecy at all. It is a reference to the Hebrew exodus from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus. Matthew tries to hide this fact by quoting only the last part of the verse ("Out of Egypt I have called my son").

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2 The gospel of Matthew (Matthew 2:5-6) claims that Jesus' birth in Bethlehem fulfils this prophecy. But this is unlikely for two reasons.

A) "Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb's second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chronicles 2:18, 2:50-52 & 4:4).

B) The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from Micah 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did. It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah 5:2 by saying: "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah" rather than "Bethlehem Ephratah" as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make this verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan.

And finally, Jesus makes a lot of mistakes and he has a couple of prophecies that didn't happen:

If the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord and the oracle does not come true, that oracle was not spoken by the Lord — Deut 18:22

What does this mean? It means that if a prophet makes prophecies that do not come true, then they are not one of God's prophets. It doesn't matter how many miracles they do. It doesn't matter how many nice things they say, or how many good teachings they have. It doesn't matter if they feed the starving and heal the sick. The scripture is quite clear, if a prophet speaks in the Name of the Lord, and it does not come true, then the oracle is not from the Lord.

Matt 10:23 — Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the son of man has come.
This is the first false prophecy Jesus makes in Matthew. Speaking to his apostles, he tells them that he will return before they are able to spread the word throughout all of the cities in Israel. Well, the word was spread all throughout Israel, and Jesus still hasn't returned.
Matt 12:39 — An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall be no sign given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.
Now, who asked him for a sign? The people he was speaking to. So which generation wanted to see the sign? The present generation, of course. And the sign of the prophet Jonas, three days in the belly of the whale, is clarified in the next verse as being his three days in the tomb before the resurrection. Now, Jesus said that this would be a sign for the generation. Yet, the entire generation didn't see it. It was to be a sign unto the Pharisees, yet they didn't see it. Only his followers supposedly saw it. Thus, there was no sign, and it was a false prophecy.
Matt 12:41 — The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it
Now, during the time of Jesus, Nineveh had not existed for almost 600 years. It was a pile of rubble. This prophecy states that the dead shall rise in judgment with this generation. Which generation? The one that Jesus referred to as a 'wicked and adulterous generation that sought a sign'. And who was seeking the sign? The Pharisees. That was the generation he was referring to, that was the generation he was speaking to. Generation has a very special and specific meaning in the original Greek, and cannot possibly refer to a future generation in any tense that could be translated as 'this generation'. More on the word 'generation' and 'this generation' will be covered at the conclusion of the four sets of false prophecies in the gospel, since it is the word most twisted by Christians to justify why Jesus has not returned yet, like he said he would. False prophecy number three.
Matt 16:4 “A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall be no sign given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.”
Here Jesus makes the same false prophecy that doesn't come true. He told the Pharisees that his resurrection would be a sign for them. But it wasn't. The Pharisees simply never received that sign. False prophecy four.

Matt 23:36 “Verily I say unto you, all these things shall come upon this generation”
Here, Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees again. He directs every comment made toward them, and ends with 'these things shall come upon this generation'. There is no possible context where 'this generation' could refer to a future generation. The original Greek simply doesn't allow it, and even in English, there is no context that would allow it in this chapter. These things didn't happen — false prophecy #6
Matt 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come”Well, the gospel has been preached in every nation in the world. Yet, the end still hasn't come. If you don't believe that the gospel has been preached in the every nation, then you are probably naí¯ve. Paul actually stated that it had ALREADY been preached all over the entire world in Romans. So I guess Paul lied too. False prophecy #8.
Matt 24:33-35 “So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, until all these things be fulfilled.”
Ok, in this situation Jesus is speaking to his apostles again. He tells them that they will see ALL of the things that he mentioned, which include the stars falling out of the sky, and the son of man coming in the clouds. Now, the apostles obviously didn't see all of these things before they passed. Again, the idea that they have 'everlasting life' still doesn't apply, because he says that the generation will not pass until those things are fulfilled. That means that after they are filled, the generation will pass. Thus, no everlasting life. So the everlasting life excuse just isn't going to cut it. Anyway, the apostles didn't see any of it, the generation passed, and we have false prophecy #9.
Matt 26:64 “Hereafter shall ye see the son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven”
In this instance, Jesus is on trail, and speaking to the High Priest. He told the High Priest that he would see all of this. This simply never happened, the High Priest 2000 years ago has been dead a long, long time. False prophecy #10.

Also how can Jesus be God:

Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent."

Hosea 11:9 "For I am God, and not man"

Psalm 146:3 "Do not put your trust in princes, nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help."

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change"

So what have we learned? God is not human, not a man. Not even 100% divine and 100% man. All of those concepts violate scripture. God also never changes, so he couldnt 'become' a son of man later. God said so. Furthermore, there is no salvation in a son of man. Jesus used this title constantly. If jesus called himself son of man, and scripture states that there is no salvation in a son of man, how can jesus save? Simple - he can't. The scripture above states that only HaShem saves.

Finally Isaiah 53 & 52 really don't seem to be talking about Jesus:

Isaiah 52:14 states, “So marred was his appearance, unlike that of a man, his form, beyond human semblance”
-Even though Jesus was whipped and crucified, his form was not marred beyond human semblance. He still resembled a human being, and his form was still like that of a man.
-Israel was marred beyond this symbolism, however, when the entire nation was taken into captivity. Israel 1, Jesus 0.
Isaiah 53:4 states, “Yet it was our sickness that he was bearing, our suffering that he endured, we accounted him plagued, smitten and affected by God.”
Isaiah 53:3 contains, “A man of suffering, familiar with disease.”
Isaiah 53:10 states, “But the Lord chose to crush him by disease”
-Now, these passages tell us that the suffering servant being described was not only familiar with disease, but also afflicted with it, and crushed by it. It may be argued that Jesus was familiar with disease; however, he was not crushed by disease. There is no record of Jesus being sick in his life, much less diseased. And he certainly was not 'crushed' by disease.
And no, disease does not mean sin or anything else. It is a very specific word, which refers to physical sickness. The words sickness, plagued, smitten, affected, and diseases are all quite clear references that demonstrate physical illness and disease. Basically, Jesus didn't match up with any of these. Thus, he isn't the suffering servant.
-Israel, on the other hand, was afflicted, smitten, and plagued with disease and sickness multiple times. Once again, Israel fits, Jesus doesn't. Israel 2, Jesus 0.
Isaiah 53:10 also states, “That, if he made himself an offering for guilt, he might see offspring and have long life”
-Note, this says long life, not eternal life. Jesus supposedly lived forever; so long life means that the person will die at one point. This also states 'if he made himself an offering for guilt'. We have no record of Jesus ever making any guilt offerings. And no, this does not refer to Jesus himself being an offering for guilt. It states that the suffering servant would make an offering for guilt. It also says, 'he might see offspring'. Yes, this refers to PHYSICAL offspring. 'Born again' Jesus cult followers are not offspring. They are followers, or disciples. If it had meant disciples, it would have said that. But it didn't, it said offspring, physical children.
-So, Jesus didn't have a long life. Jesus didn't ever make any guilt offerings. Jesus also didn't have any offspring. Israel, however, did all of these things. Israel 3, Jesus 0.
Now, I know there are lots of “what about…” statements about oth er parts of Isaiah that seem to refer to what Christians think Jesus did. Basically, it doesn't matter how many parallels can be drawn between Christian opinion of Jesus and this passage, for the simple reason that Jesus does not match every detail of the scripture. If even ONE thing is off, for example Jesus being diseased, then Jesus doesn't fit the scripture. Israel, however, fit the descriptions of everything perfectly.


“He was despised, shunned by men” — Israel was despised
“He was wounded because of our sins” — Israel was wounded
“He bore the chastisement that made us whole” — Israel bore it
“By his bruises we were healed” — By Israel's bruises
“The Lord visited upon him the guilt of all of us” — Upon Israel
“He bore the guilt of the many, and made intercession for sinners” — Israel did this. It made sin atonement for the many on a daily basis. It should also be noted that this was much more than just animal sacrifice.


It is important to note that the 'us' and 'we' and 'our' is referring to the people of Israel, as individuals, and as spoken by Isaiah. The 'him' is referring to Israel as a nation, and the people as a collective nation. So to clarify further, it would look something like this…
“By his (the nation of Israel's) bruises we (the people of Israel) were healed”
The important part to remember, however, is that Jesus did not fit the scripture in its entirety. Thus, it was not about Jesus.

Also Jesus makes a mistake here:

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp. (john 10)

Jesus here is referring to Psalm 82, but the problem is he says "is it not written in your law" when Psalm 82 isn't even part of the Torah. Psalm is not included in the Law.

This is a lot to take in, but i would like people to look over it and address some of the stuff here.