Evidence for God from Science

Fair question STRIX< about what scripture supports my belief that unclean spirits and demon possession is still a part of life today. I base this on every other aspect of scripture - if it isn't mentioned as changing, ceasing, or developing into something different, I think it is safe to say that we should not assume it has. Many use vague scriptures to make claims that certain things, like miracles, healing, or speaking in tongues are not longer a part of the Christian life today, but scripture does not say this is the case. (1 Cor 13 is the scripture used to support this)

There is also evidence of demonic activity in the world today, and it would be unwise to assume that because we don't understand the spiritual realm or the warfare that exists, that it doesn't exist. Paul said our struggle was not against flesh and blod, if this were not the case still today, it would have been stated as such in God's WOrd, don't you think? SO if there are demonic spirits waging war against us, would not these be unclean spirits? ANyway, that is my line of reasoning, for what it's worth

Zoe wrote:Many use vague scriptures to make claims that certain things, like miracles, healing, or speaking in tongues are not longer a part of the Christian life today, but scripture does not say this is the case. (1 Cor 13 is the scripture used to support this)

Thank you for the response, Zoe... I would be very interested in your understanding of 1 Cor. 13:8-13 if you have the time to outline it for me.

Zoe wrote:There is also evidence of demonic activity in the world today, and it would be unwise to assume that because we don't understand the spiritual realm or the warfare that exists, that it doesn't exist. Paul said our struggle was not against flesh and blod, if this were not the case still today, it would have been stated as such in God's WOrd, don't you think? SO if there are demonic spirits waging war against us, would not these be unclean spirits? ANyway, that is my line of reasoning, for what it's worth

I do not disagree that the spiritual world exists and has an impact on mankind. My understanding is that the nature of the interaction at any given time in human history may not be consistent. We certainly don't have any events (that I am aware of) like that of the stirring of the waters in John 5:4 (ASV, NASB, KJV, NKJV).

We have to be careful of our own assessment of what a demon "looks like" (the appearance of). There are several passages where people mislabelled or incorrectly characterized based on an outward judgement. Christ said that John the Baptist was labelled as having a demon (Matthew 11:18; Luke 7:33), but certainly that was not the case. They were misguided by appearance and did not listen to the Scriptures that foretold of his coming or the message he was preaching. The same is true later of Christ himself (John 8:47-49,52; 10:20).

I find a completely different picture of demon possession in the Gospels. It could be that I haven't been at the right place at the right time, but I have never heard a demon speak (Mark 1:34; 5:12). I have never seen a man who was not able to be subdued with enough force (Mark 5:3-4). I have never seen a demon slam someone to the ground (Luke 9:42) - an occurrence where it would have been clear that something had taken control of the body and the person was not doing it to himself. I do not intend to belittle anyones experiences or demean their beliefs, but all I have read about in this thread were shadows and feelings... These do not appear to be Biblical hallmarks of demon possession.

Something else that I may be reading into the posts, but it seems that there is a general consensus that if a person is demon possessed that they have sinned in some way. I do not find a correlation in the Scriptures that it was the person's fault for having a demon. The people who were possessed in the 1st century were unable to control the possessor (coming or going). Has demon possession so dramatically changed? The question becomes if demons today do not interact in the same manner as in the 1st century, then how are we to correctly identify if a person truly is demon possessed or simply has a mental disorder or is sick?

I think there has been a significant change in that there are no more interactions of the kind we read about in the Gospels. These demons were agents in the signs that Christ and the other disciples performed (Mark 16:17-18). "These signs"... What was the purpose of these signs? Mark 16:20 - "...and confirmed the word by the signs that followed..." If the Word has been confirmed and "was once for all handed down to the saints" (Jude 1:3) (notice the past tense of this phrase), then my question would be, is there any need for signs to confirm the Word today? If the purpose for these signs has past, then is it that far of a stretch to say that demon possession has ended (Zech. 13:2)?

Strix wrote:I find a completely different picture of demon possession in the Gospels. It could be that I haven't been at the right place at the right time, but I have never heard a demon speak (Mark 1:34; 5:12). I have never seen a man who was not able to be subdued with enough force (Mark 5:3-4). I have never seen a demon slam someone to the ground (Luke 9:42) - an occurrence where it would have been clear that something had taken control of the body and the person was not doing it to himself. I do not intend to belittle anyones experiences or demean their beliefs, but all I have read about in this thread were shadows and feelings... These do not appear to be Biblical hallmarks of demon possession.

You'll find in third world countries demonic forces reveal themselves more openly. It's part of Satan's strategy in the wealthy nations to convince people that God doesn't exist, and everyone can be their own god. (and the strategy does seem to work)

See this prior post about the witch doctor in the Philippines who killed so many people that the Police would just collect the bodies at a nearby road. My uncle had talked about him with a number of locals.
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... s+trip#978

The same trip he also learned about a guy who had his home/shack taken over by a demon. They actually took my uncle to the shack, and were explaining how the demon had actually thrown the guy through the walls in his house, and that's what caused the holes that we never repaired. Anyways, the guy goes to see the local Catholic priest, who deliberates for a while and tells him that "the demon has claimed that spot for himself. Build 10 feet in another direction and you'll be fine." So the guy did, and he's been fine. Incidently, that fits in with Satan's strategy... In this case the priest was totally corrupt, and when the priest appears to have authority over the demon (through Satan's cooperation) then other people see that and turn to Satan worship because they see that power demonstrated often.

Anyways, you can believe or not believe, but the evidence is there if you're willing to trust a little. And although you question the subjectivity of the 'shadow' experiences, the one I had in LA with that transvestite (see the above link) was not an illusion. All 4 of us felt it, and once you feel that evil precense you just 'know' 100% that it wasn't just imagination. Until you feel it for yourself, I think you'll probably remain skeptical.

P.S. You did raise a good point about mistaking possession. Nice verses about John the Baptist.

Felgar wrote: You'll find in third world countries demonic forces reveal themselves more openly. It's part of Satan's strategy in the wealthy nations to convince people that God doesn't exist, and everyone can be their own god. (and the strategy does seem to work)

See this prior post about the witch doctor in the Philippines who killed so many people that the Police would just collect the bodies at a nearby road. My uncle had talked about him with a number of locals.
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... s+trip#978

The same trip he also learned about a guy who had his home/shack taken over by a demon. They actually took my uncle to the shack, and were explaining how the demon had actually thrown the guy through the walls in his house, and that's what caused the holes that we never repaired. Anyways, the guy goes to see the local Catholic priest, who deliberates for a while and tells him that "the demon has claimed that spot for himself. Build 10 feet in another direction and you'll be fine." So the guy did, and he's been fine. Incidently, that fits in with Satan's strategy... In this case the priest was totally corrupt, and when the priest appears to have authority over the demon (through Satan's cooperation) then other people see that and turn to Satan worship because they see that power demonstrated often.

Anyways, you can believe or not believe, but the evidence is there if you're willing to trust a little. And although you question the subjectivity of the 'shadow' experiences, the one I had in LA with that transvestite (see the above link) was not an illusion. All 4 of us felt it, and once you feel that evil precense you just 'know' 100% that it wasn't just imagination. Until you feel it for yourself, I think you'll probably remain skeptical.

P.S. You did raise a good point about mistaking possession. Nice verses about John the Baptist.

Hey Felgar I read that Transvestite Experience and it would have been nice if the Car did Stall That way you could have Rebuked those Demons and saved that Woman/Man's Life! Just a Thought!

Felgar, you're encouragement is always refreshing (sincerely)... and yes, as you wrote in your previous post, "all these things take some measure of Faith to believe in the first place".

Felgar wrote:You'll find in third world countries demonic forces reveal themselves more openly. It's part of Satan's strategy in the wealthy nations to convince people that God doesn't exist, and everyone can be their own god. (and the strategy does seem to work)

You know I'm a big Scripture buff, so I would need to see Scripture that would back-up the supposition that demon possession is economically or geographically driven.

Felgar wrote:See this prior post about the witch doctor in the Philippines who killed so many people that the Police would just collect the bodies at a nearby road. My uncle had talked about him with a number of locals.
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... s+trip#978

Again, (and I am ingenuously asking) is there Scripture that relates how someone handled a demon by preaching about Christ to the possessed or praying [only] over (s)he, or came to know that a person was demon possessed simply by a feeling? Most (if not all) Biblical demon possessions were made known through remarkable physical actions or with the demon(s) actually speaking from within the person (these of the ones I have read about thus far... I'm still studying on this subject).

Felgar wrote:They actually took my uncle to the shack, and were explaining how the demon had actually thrown the guy through the walls in his house, and that's what caused the holes that we never repaired.

If I'm understanding the story correctly, he was told about the possession, but never actually witnessed it?

I guess my skepticism overcomes my willingness to believe. The main problem I have is the question of the purpose of demon possession today. The expulsion of demon(s) by Christ and His followers in the 1st Century confirmed the Word which they were preaching. The Word is firmly established today, and so that exigency is no longer needed. If they still manifest themselves in the same way, but cannot be cast out of the possessed (in none of the accounts I have read so far has the demon been expunged from the victim), then what is the purpose today... ?

Strix wrote:If they still manifest themselves in the same way, but cannot be cast out of the possessed (in none of the accounts I have read so far has the demon been expunged from the victim), then what is the purpose today... ?

The purpose today is for Satan to deceive... Same as it has always been Strix. Think about the display of actual power and how many he can lead astray.

As for his differing strategies, it would take a long time to do a proper biblical study. But the basic gist is that when people have wealth and power they can easily be swayed to simply deny God and/or ignore Him. "After all, aren't we all gods? Aren't we all in control?" How many times have you heard that in the West? There are many verses that will warn of greed, love of money, and placing trust in things before God.

But if you really want a biblical foundation here it is:

Mark 16:15
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

Serve the Lord and see what happens... Go help the poor and see for yourself.

bizzt wrote:Hey Felgar I read that Transvestite Experience and it would have been nice if the Car did Stall That way you could have Rebuked those Demons and saved that Woman/Man's Life! Just a Thought!

Straight up man, my faith would not have been ready. I'd have sunk like Peter. Perhaps my uncle could have called upon the Lord to save us, or else perhaps God just would have regardless, I don't know.

One of these days I'm gonna really have to study up on spiritual warfare and prayer. Like really, why does God even need us? And why will not even Micheal slander satan, when truly satan has no power over any man of God? And why are we told to take up the full armour of God, if there's no harm able to come to us?

Strix wrote:

I guess my skepticism overcomes my willingness to believe. The main problem I have is the question of the purpose of demon possession today. The expulsion of demon(s) by Christ and His followers in the 1st Century confirmed the Word which they were preaching. The Word is firmly established today, and so that exigency is no longer needed. If they still manifest themselves in the same way, but cannot be cast out of the possessed (in none of the accounts I have read so far has the demon been expunged from the victim), then what is the purpose today... ?

Tell me why the WORD is firmly Established Today? I think it is the same as it always has been. There are JW, Mormon, Different Interpretations of Different Scriptures and how they relate to us in everyday life.

In the Present there are more people then ever before that do not know who Jesus is.

Here is a link that was fairly interesting
http://www.tftw.org/Tracts/demons.html

Felgar wrote: Straight up man, my faith would not have been ready. I'd have sunk like Peter. Perhaps my uncle could have called upon the Lord to save us, or else perhaps God just would have regardless, I don't know.

One of these days I'm gonna really have to study up on spiritual warfare and prayer. Like really, why does God even need us? And why will not even Micheal slander satan, when truly satan has no power over any man of God? And why are we told to take up the full armour of God, if there's no harm able to come to us?

It was then a Good Thing that you did not try then. A great Book my Friend is "Bondage Breakers" by Neil Anderson! I found that to be the most enlightening Book
Check it out here http://www.harvesthousepublishers.com/b ... ID=6902414

Why Did God Need Peter, Paul? They were there to spread the word and God needs a Vessal to do his Work and that Vessal is us! It is like us why should we NOT slander people that have Hurt us (even though we do )?

First we must ask what is the Armour Of God?
2Cr 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

Here is the Full Embodiment of Spirtual Warfare and the Answer to your question is in Bold

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

In Christ

Ironic that I just quoted that passage to HMG yesterday.

Looks like an interesting book, perhaps I'll check it out if I can find some time. Thanks bizzt.

Felgar wrote:Ironic that I just quoted that passage to HMG yesterday.

Looks like an interesting book, perhaps I'll check it out if I can find some time. Thanks bizzt.

Hey No Problem Felgar glad I could be of Help!

"You know I'm a big Scripture buff, so I would need to see Scripture that would back-up the supposition that demon possession is economically or geographically driven. "

(I'm not so computer-savvy so I have no clue how you guys neatly place prior quotes in that gray box to reply to, so this will have to suffice.)

In reading the gospels, there is somewhat of a pattern of demon possession and geographic location. But, I won't say what it is so you have ot look for yourself - that's half the fun! Just search through the gospels and read the accounts of anyone and everyone who was demon possessed, as well as in the book of Acts. Mark it on the map, and see what you discover. Of course there are exceptions, but I personally believe it goes along with the "sins of the fathers is visited on the children" can also include that of demonic oppression/possession.

I also find it interesting that many of the heinous sexual crimes/sins such as rape, incest, child molestation, etc often result on the person having sexual difficulties later in life: promiscuity, homosexuality, abortions, etc. There is something about the evil of it that promotes more - an opening oneself (willingly or unwillingly) to that evil realm.


I also find it interesting that many of these same people have exprimented with self mutilation (cutting themselves, just like the demon possessed people in the gospels). In addition, and PLEASE don't think I mean this in every situation, it is just something to consider: people with severa mental illness such as someone who is autistic exhibits many of the same behaviors that the demon possessed people did in the gospels: running about with no clothes on, injuring themselves and others, inability to speak, difficulty understanding, moments of rage.

So, did we always have people with mental illness about, and just didn't know what it was to diagnose officially? Was the guy with "Legion" simply autistic and they didn't know what autism was? Or is mental illness Satan's way of disguising the work of his demons today? We don't like to think that those with mental illness, bipolarity, depression, etc have demonic origins, but what if they do? Just something to ponder. I hope I didn't offend anyone. I have some close friends whose son is autistic and his behavior very much makes me think "demonic" at times, although I love him dearly.

nowhere, apparently:

http://www.sonypictures.com/movies/thee ... index.html

Prodigal Son wrote:do you think people get possessed regularly? is it a routine occurence? can people be possessed unbeknownst to them and others? is it always a dramatic event like in exorcist or those tv specials where people are writhing and going nuts?

People who believe in space aliens, get abducted by space aliens.

People who believe in demons, are possessed by demons.

I'll leave it to you to join the dots.

Strix wrote:This is an older thread, but it's new to me. Reading through, I didn't see anyone reference this passage: Zechariah 13:2

The NIV reads "spirit of impurity"; the NASB, NKJV, and KJV all read "unclean spirit".

That's a good verse, because it shows what an 'unclean spirt' actually is (no demons here).

Strix wrote:You know I'm a big Scripture buff, so I would need to see Scripture that would back-up the supposition that demon possession is economically or geographically driven.

Fascinatingly, there is actually a geographical and economic distribution pattern in the gospels. After work, I'll see if I can find it.

Your posts have been excellent, by the way.