Evidence for God from Science

Tolerating Roman rule and taxes and tolerating people believing in something that is non-Christianity and being immoral

I didn't mean there were three things I'm, sorry. On one hand you have tolerating Roman rules and taxes, and on the other you have tolerating immorality and people believing in something that is non-Christian (minus anity).

Felgar wrote:

ongelovige wrote:Felgar, grow up

Ok, so you're not in the joking mood... The point is this: there ARE absolutes, whether you recognize them or not. If you refuse to accept that God and His Word are absolute, then you have no faith because you don't actually believe anything at all - well nothing about God, His love, and his grace through Jesus anyways.

This is EXACTLY what Jesus was talking about; build your house upon the rock - how could He have said "I am absolute" any more clearly?

Matthew 7:24-27
Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

The point: building your faith on relativism amounts to a foundation of sand, and it will be knocked to the ground when pressured.

Felgar, I read your cited text very carefully for a number of times but I keep failing to understand whí½ you think this 'proves the existence of God'. After all, that's the first of our absolute truths, not.

I think you fail to see the subtle difference between 'í believe God exists' and 'I can prove God exists'. The first statement is okay, the second statement is poppy ****.

Let's assume you can prove it. Why o why do all the the people on this planet fail to see this? Are they all stupid or something?

I suspect you'll say something along the lines of you can only understand this proof if you accept God into your heart. That makes your proof self referential and therefore invalid. I hope we can agree on that.

OK?

ongelovige wrote:Felgar, I read your cited text very carefully for a number of times but I keep failing to understand whí½ you think this 'proves the existence of God'. After all, that's the first of our absolute truths, not.

I think you fail to see the subtle difference between 'í believe God exists' and 'I can prove God exists'. The first statement is okay, the second statement is poppy ****.

Let's assume you can prove it. Why o why do all the the people on this planet fail to see this? Are they all stupid or something?

I suspect you'll say something along the lines of you can only understand this proof if you accept God into your heart. That makes your proof self referential and therefore invalid. I hope we can agree on that.

We agree that I haven't provided valid truth at all. I never said I can prove to anyone that God exists, and I haven't been trying to provide proof. What I said is that He DOES exist whether anyone believes it or not.

The larger point is that I don't believe you can actually have faith while at the same time rejecting the fundamental truth that God exists and that the Bible is His Holy Word. And the passage from Matthew speaks to that point - that if you don't accept the Bible and build your faith upon it, then your faith has no foundation and stands to be swept away. Maybe you don't even claim to be a Christian but I thought you did. If you aren't a Christian then my point is entirely vacuous and you can feel free to ignore it. It is intended to help a fellow Christian grow in their relationship with Jesus; it is not intended to sway a nonbeliever.

It's a little off-topic but with respect to all the people on the planet failing to see this fundamental truth that God exists, I disagree that the vast majority don't see it. Atheism represents an extremely small portion of the world's population, and I believe that a large portion of professed atheists actually do recognize a higher power but lie to themselves just to make themselves feel better about living life as if there will be nothing to answer for.

Felgar wrote:The larger point is that I don't believe you can actually have faith while at the same time rejecting the fundamental truth that God exists and that the Bible is His Holy Word. And the passage from Matthew speaks to that point - that if you don't accept the Bible and build your faith upon it, then your faith has no foundation and stands to be swept away. Maybe you don't even claim to be a Christian but I thought you did. If you aren't a Christian then my point is entirely vacuous and you can feel free to ignore it. It is intended to help a fellow Christian grow in their relationship with Jesus; it is not intended to sway a nonbeliever.

It's a little off-topic but with respect to all the people on the planet failing to see this fundamental truth that God exists, I disagree that the vast majority don't see it. Atheism represents an extremely small portion of the world's population, and I believe that a large portion of professed atheists actually do recognize a higher power but lie to themselves just to make themselves feel better about living life as if there will be nothing to answer for.

Hmm, as a Catholic I can testify that loads of people where taught to believe without the bible, some books of the OT are even expressly forbidden.

The vast majority of the planet is religious I guess (not atheist, almost nobody DENIES the existence of God). Most though believe in something else then the holy Trinity - 1.000.000.000 Indian, 1.200.000.000 Chinese for starters believe something completely different then what we are exposed to.

ongelovige wrote:Hmm, as a Catholic I can testify that loads of people where taught to believe without the bible, some books of the OT are even expressly forbidden.

Well then my reply to you stands - I feel God is calling you to start developing a personal relationship with Him. One great way to do that is to study the Bible. Just like Jesus said, this is the foundation. Through His Word you will learn to know Him more and more. And I can speak from experience that this is a great journey; just continuing to learn more about my Lord!

In addition to the Bible, another important part of our walk with Jesus is to spend time in prayer and just having a heart of submission to Him. This is part of seeking His kingdom which is to come first - the rest of life is what God promises to fulfill when we seek him.

This is completely off-topic. Shame Felgar, shame.

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:This is completely off-topic. Shame Felgar, shame.

LOL... I guess it is!

It started as my clarification of ongelovige's beliefs which was required in order to debate with him. It's important to know because if you're talking to a Christian then the Bible should stand as truth whereas the Bible means nothing to a professed non-believer.

But you're right, it's off-topic. Shall I split the thread into one about Christianity being selfish and another about whether there are absolute truths?

No, it's obvious there are absolute truths. To say otherwise is a contradiction. "THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES!" is an absolute. It's really not that hard to refute such a belief. That should be enough, but there are some dummies out there...