Evidence for God from Science

phoney wrote:When I read [Bible] Ecclesiastes 3:19-22[Bible] I get the impression animals do not have a spirit and when they die they die. When I read Isaiah [Bible] Isaiah 11:4-9 It tells me animals will be around. Any thoughts?

Just wanted to add another thought. [Bible] 1 peter 3:20[Bible] says only eight souls saved on the Ark so this
indicates of all the animals saved on the ark they did not have a soul

Anonymous wrote:hey since animals don't follow any religion at all. what happens to them when they die?.

Hmmm, -- Well elk become steak. Channel Catfish goes good with cornmeal and little salt and pepper. Chicken is good fried too.

Seriously, after they die — God can do with them as he likes. He owns all the cattle and in fact all creation too — it is his to do with as he wills.

Wasn't there going to be a wedding feast in heaven? Wonder what they'll serve? Fried Chicken?

Sorry — dumb joke but could not resist!
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This may seem presumptuous, even arrogant... but I am of the opinion that anyone who states human beings possess souls, yet maintains living animals do not, has likely not explored very far the ontology of a soul and what it is.

In revelation it clearly mentions a Horse!!! Not that it matters much as BW says It is God's Creation and he can do with it as he pleases.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Kurieuo wrote:This may seem presumptuous, even arrogant... but I am of the opinion that anyone who states human beings possess souls, yet maintains living animals do not, has likely not explored very far the ontology of a soul and what it is.

Good point. I agree.

bizzt wrote:In revelation it clearly mentions a Horse!!! Not that it matters much as BW says It is God's Creation and he can do with it as he pleases.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Yes - that settles it then - there are animals in heaven — we have bible on that fact! Can't wait to see my German Shepard again! However, the green turtles I gave a slow hot bath too when I was a kid — er no…

Good point — The Lord is riding on something! So there are animals in heaven and they came from somewhere. We have an answer to this thread! YES!!!

B. W. wrote:

bizzt wrote:In revelation it clearly mentions a Horse!!! Not that it matters much as BW says It is God's Creation and he can do with it as he pleases.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Yes - that settles it then - there are animals in heaven — we have bible on that fact! Can't wait to see my German Shepard again! However, the green turtles I gave a slow hot bath too when I was a kid — er no…

Good point — The Lord is riding on something! So there are animals in heaven and they came from somewhere. We have an answer to this thread! YES!!!

I agree animals will be in heaven, however I have not seen anything that says someones pet will be there.

B. W. wrote:

bizzt wrote:In revelation it clearly mentions a Horse!!! Not that it matters much as BW says It is God's Creation and he can do with it as he pleases.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Yes - that settles it then - there are animals in heaven — we have bible on that fact! Can't wait to see my German Shepard again! However, the green turtles I gave a slow hot bath too when I was a kid — er no…

Good point — The Lord is riding on something! So there are animals in heaven and they came from somewhere. We have an answer to this thread! YES!!!

I am trying to figure out how to take that

Kurieuo wrote:This may seem presumptuous, even arrogant... but I am of the opinion that anyone who states human beings possess souls, yet maintains living animals do not, has likely not explored very far the ontology of a soul and what it is.

Why does the Bible instruct us to eat animals (that you say have souls), but not people that have souls?

and you never responded to ECC 3:19-21. I would like to hear what you think.

phoney wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:This may seem presumptuous, even arrogant... but I am of the opinion that anyone who states human beings possess souls, yet maintains living animals do not, has likely not explored very far the ontology of a soul and what it is.

Why does the Bible instruct us to eat animals (that you say have souls), but not people that have souls?

and you never responded to ECC 3:19-21. I would like to hear what you think.

Animals can possess souls, but it does not mean they possess the imago Dei or are made in God's image.

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." (Gen 1:27)

"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man." (Gen 9:6)

phoney wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:This may seem presumptuous, even arrogant... but I am of the opinion that anyone who states human beings possess souls, yet maintains living animals do not, has likely not explored very far the ontology of a soul and what it is.

Why does the Bible instruct us to eat animals (that you say have souls), but not people that have souls?

and you never responded to ECC 3:19-21. I would like to hear what you think.

To answer and respond to your question regarding ECC 3:19-21: These verses are stating that animals are lower than human beings who were created in God's image and that all those bound to mortality suffer the same fate — we die. Let's look further and you discover that these verses are not talking about the eternal destiny of animals but rather humanity.

Let's explore each verse for a moment: ECC 3:19-21

Verse 21 in the Hebrew text is actually a rhetorical question pondering what happens after both man and beast die in response to verses 16-20. Verse 21 should read something like this:

“Who knows whether the spirit of men goes upward and whether the spirit of the beast goes back down to the earth ?”

This is a question for the reader to ponder on his or her own in regards to their own eternal state which is in reference to ECC 3:16-18:

Go back and look at:

Verses 16-17 — God test and will judge men and women

Verses 18 — God's test exposes the sin nature within human beings which live in accordance to a base 'symbolic animal' nature. Like these idiom's we use in America and elsewhere, like these examples: to live like a dog — live hog wild — crazy like a fox — they have bats in the belfry — that our modern vernacular uses. The use in ECC 3:18 is however stronger as it is revealing that humanity has fallen from God so much so that now, we are like brute beast to be trapped and disposed of.

Verse 19-20 — Describes the test, we all will die and then are judged. This is in reference too Ecc 3:11, 14-15. that beings will live forever because what God does last forever. Though we die in the natural psychical realm, we continue on because what God does last forever!

Verse 21 in conclusions asks a rhetorical question that each reader will have to answer independently to him/her self: “Who knows whether the spirit of men goes upward and whether the spirit of the beast goes back down to the earth ?”

In other words — how will God judge you? Like an animal or like his son?

Verse 22 — to rejoice in you own works — endeavors — has a double meaning here. One can rejoice living in accordance to his/her sin nature [those that so choose to do so have that right] or one can rejoice returning to God [see Ecc 12:13-14]: Living to reflect the Lord as his child — learning of Him and about Him — living life as a reflection of the image and likeness we were originally designed to be. The balance of which is being a partaker of the Lord's divine nature shining his virtue, character of goodness, mercy, love as 2 Peter 1:2-11 describes.

This comes about by fearing God, keeping what he reveals to us i.e. His commandments which explains certain attributes of his virtue we are to reflect. If you fear God, you will not become a despotic tyrant acting like an animalistic vengeful god but rather will be like a Child looking up to his/her wonderful caring loving Father.

ECC12:14 — now makes sense does it not?

Verse ECC 12:14, "For God shall bring every work into the judgment concerning every hidden thing, whether it be good or whether it be evil. " JSP

To those reading this: where do you stand? The scriptures testify of Christ Jesus. Return to him and be saved, forever changed, and everlastingly pardoned. Amen...

ECC 3:21, “Who knows whether the spirit of men goes upward and whether the spirit of the beast goes back down to the earth ?” Author Paraphrase

Would you like to be sure?
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B. W. wrote:

phoney wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:This may seem presumptuous, even arrogant... but I am of the opinion that anyone who states human beings possess souls, yet maintains living animals do not, has likely not explored very far the ontology of a soul and what it is.

Why does the Bible instruct us to eat animals (that you say have souls), but not people that have souls?

and you never responded to ECC 3:19-21. I would like to hear what you think.

To answer and respond to your question regarding ECC 3:19-21: These verses are stating that animals are lower than human beings who were created in God's image and that all those bound to mortality suffer the same fate — we die. Let's look further and you discover that these verses are not talking about the eternal destiny of animals but rather humanity.

Let's explore each verse for a moment: ECC 3:19-21

Verse 21 in the Hebrew text is actually a rhetorical question pondering what happens after both man and beast die in response to verses 16-20. Verse 21 should read something like this:

“Who knows whether the spirit of men goes upward and whether the spirit of the beast goes back down to the earth ?”

This is a question for the reader to ponder on his or her own in regards to their own eternal state which is in reference to ECC 3:16-18:

Go back and look at:

Verses 16-17 — God test and will judge men and women

Verses 18 — God's test exposes the sin nature within human beings which live in accordance to a base 'symbolic animal' nature. Like these idiom's we use in America and elsewhere, like these examples: to live like a dog — live hog wild — crazy like a fox — they have bats in the belfry — that our modern vernacular uses. The use in ECC 3:18 is however stronger as it is revealing that humanity has fallen from God so much so that now, we are like brute beast to be trapped and disposed of.

Verse 19-20 — Describes the test, we all will die and then are judged. This is in reference too Ecc 3:11, 14-15. that beings will live forever because what God does last forever. Though we die in the natural psychical realm, we continue on because what God does last forever!

Verse 21 in conclusions asks a rhetorical question that each reader will have to answer independently to him/her self: “Who knows whether the spirit of men goes upward and whether the spirit of the beast goes back down to the earth ?”

In other words — how will God judge you? Like an animal or like his son?

Verse 22 — to rejoice in you own works — endeavors — has a double meaning here. One can rejoice living in accordance to his/her sin nature [those that so choose to do so have that right] or one can rejoice returning to God [see Ecc 12:13-14]: Living to reflect the Lord as his child — learning of Him and about Him — living life as a reflection of the image and likeness we were originally designed to be. The balance of which is being a partaker of the Lord's divine nature shining his virtue, character of goodness, mercy, love as 2 Peter 1:2-11 describes.

This comes about by fearing God, keeping what he reveals to us i.e. His commandments which explains certain attributes of his virtue we are to reflect. If you fear God, you will not become a despotic tyrant acting like an animalistic vengeful god but rather will be like a Child looking up to his/her wonderful caring loving Father.

ECC12:14 — now makes sense does it not?

Verse ECC 12:14, "For God shall bring every work into the judgment concerning every hidden thing, whether it be good or whether it be evil. " JSP

To those reading this: where do you stand? The scriptures testify of Christ Jesus. Return to him and be saved, forever changed, and everlastingly pardoned. Amen...

ECC 3:21, “Who knows whether the spirit of men goes upward and whether the spirit of the beast goes back down to the earth ?” Author Paraphrase

Would you like to be sure?
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Thanks for the reply, thats what is so good about this forum, people like myself, get to learn about things which can confuse a new christian. I see a different meaning in those verses now.

Kurieuo wrote:This may seem presumptuous, even arrogant... but I am of the opinion that anyone who states human beings possess souls, yet maintains living animals do not, has likely not explored very far the ontology of a soul and what it is.

Good point Kuieuo, and I would agree with this also. Also I think Romans backs it up.

Romans 8:21 the creation (meaning all of creation) looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

Let's not forget what Isaiah said about animals in paradise too..

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Have you ever looked at the world around you? You know that God exists, it's self-evident. Ever looked at a domesticated Cat sitting on a roof? You know that that cat is thinking, it has a soul, a spirit, a personality. Every animal is unique and special (especially domesticated ones.) It's self-evident. I belive that although their afterlife is nowhere near as great as ours, I think that since God values every living thing, animals will go somewhere special, and I can only speculate, but I'm going to say it's a place of maximum earthly happiness (as opposed to maximum spiritual happiness that we will recieve.)

Harry12345 wrote:Have you ever looked at the world around you? You know that God exists, it's self-evident. Ever looked at a domesticated Cat sitting on a roof? You know that that cat is thinking, it has a soul, a spirit, a personality. Every animal is unique and special (especially domesticated ones.) It's self-evident. I belive that although their afterlife is nowhere near as great as ours, I think that since God values every living thing, animals will go somewhere special, and I can only speculate, but I'm going to say it's a place of maximum earthly happiness (as opposed to maximum spiritual happiness that we will recieve.)

Well, if skunks make it to heaven I hope they spray Es de Lauder

Could not resist the Joke!
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