Evidence for God from Science

Mormonism teaches that God is not the only deity and that we all have the potential of becoming gods.

Here you are making a claim about Mormon doctrine, when you do not understand what that doctrine is and what it is not. We absolutely do not believe that we will ever be independent of God or no longer subject to Him. We do not believe that we will take away His glory, but we only add to it by following Christ. For us, there is and always will be a need to be subject to God the Eternal Father, the Almighty God, the "God of gods and Lord of lords," as Deuteronomy 10:17 puts it. He is the One whom we worship and always will worship.

To those who follow Christ and receive His grace and power, great promises are extended. We are promised that we can receive "the fullness of God" through the grace of Christ (Ephesians 3:19). Christ said that we can become one with Him, as He is one with the Father (John 17:20-23). Paul said that Christians can become "joint heirs with Christ" and be glorified with Him (Romans 8:14-18). He challenged us to pursue the example of Christ "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Philippians 2:5,6). Peter said that through Christ, we can "put on the divine nature" and receive great and precious promises (2 Peter 1:3-4). Those who follow Christ can become "like Him" (1 John 3:2), can "inherit all things" (Rev. 21:7), and can be kings and priests before God (Rev. 1:6), sitting with Christ in His throne (Rev. 3:21). Critics, how do you explain away such scriptures? They disclose an important aspect of early Christianity, the doctrine of "theosis," holding that man can become like God.

The term "gods" is what God Himself has chosen to describe the divine potential of His sons and daughters. The possibility of multiple "godlike" beings seems to be what Paul referred to when he said there are "gods many and lords many, but to us there is but one God, the Father" (1 Cor. 8:5,6). It also seems to be what David meant in Psalm 8:4,5 when he said that man is "a little lower than the gods." The King James Version (and most translations) gives "lower than the angels," but the Hebrew word is "elohim" which means "gods." Commentators have long explained that this term, literally meaning "gods," is describing angels - divine beings serving or representing God.

The existence of other godlike beings is suggested by multiple scriptures that describe God as a "God of gods" (Deut. 10:17; Joshua 22:2, and Psalm 136:2). That phrase makes no sense if false pagan gods are meant, but perhaps it refers to angels as gods. Psalm 82:1 likewise says that God "standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods." Scholars know that the ancient Jews, including those in New Testament times, that angels were often described as "gods."

A particularly interesting example is found in Psalm 82:6: "Ye are gods; and all of you children of the most High." Christ repeated that scripture in John 10:34-36 to defend Himself against charges of blasphemy:

Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

In other words, if the scriptures label mortals who receive the law (and thus represent God) as "gods," then why should the Jews be outraged when Christ says He is the Son of God? Christ pointed out that Psalm 82:6 was not a mistake or a fluke, for He added the phrase "and the scripture cannot be broken" right after it, stressing that it was accurate and that its meaning could not be argued away.

If the Bible can use the term "gods" in to describe non-ultimate but heavenly, angelic beings who represent God, then Bible-believing people should not be outraged when Mormons use that term in much the same way. Our use of the term is clearly in a limited sense, referring to angelic, resurrected beings who receive great blessings and power from God, but remain subject to Him and serve and worship Him forever.

In the second century Saint Irenaeus, the most important Christian theologian of his time, said

[T]he Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself.

Clearly, in the 2nd century, the belief that we can become what Christ is himself was a Christian belief. Why not now? He went on to say

Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, "I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High." ... For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality."

Also in the second century, Saint Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god."

Clement also said that "if one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God.... His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes a god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, 'Men are gods, and gods are men.'"

Finally, Saint Augustine himself, the greatest of the Christian Fathers, said: "But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become the sons of God' [John 1:12] If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods."

This doctrine was a part of historical Christianity until relatively recent times, and it is still an important doctrine in some Eastern Orthodox churches.

God, according to Mormons, is not just Spirit but has "a body of flesh and bones as tangible as a man's." (Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22.) They teach, "As we are, he was. As he is, we shall become."

If God doesn't have a body of flesh and bones, and God is perfect, then you are basically saying that a body of flesh and bones is not desirable. To what end, then, did Christ resurrect?

Do not forget this basic truth, taught so plainly in the Bible: Christ is the Son of God, and God is the Father. Among the many implications of this truth, we know that as a child looks like its father, so Christ looks like His Father in Heaven. More than just being in the image of God, as all of us are (Gen. 1:26,27; James 3:9; Gen. 5:1-3), Christ is "the express image of his person" (Heb. 1:3), meaning that His physical appearance (the only proper translation for the word "image") is expressly that of the Father's. It can't be said much more clearly than that. So exact is the physical resemblance that in John 14:9, Christ says to Peter that "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father." It is important to realize that Christ is in our image, that He looks like us and has a physical, tangible body, though it is now immortal and glorious. He showed His body after He was resurrected and had his disciples feel it to remove all doubt that He was alive, resurrected, and not just a spirit. This powerful point is made in Luke 24: 36-43. He even went so far as to eat and swallow food in front of His apostles to make sure they understood the nature of His glorious body after the Resurrection, the same kind of body that we should look forward to receiving (Philip. 3:21; 1 Cor. 15:39-43; John 5:28,29). Christ is in the image of God the Father, and we are created in their image.

Instances in the Bible where people have seen God (which would be impossible if there was nothing to see, right?):
Gen 16.13; 32:30; 24.10–11; 33:20; Deut. 5.24–26; 18:16; Judg. 6.22–23; 13:22; cf Exod. 20.19; Isa. 6:5

And from a different reply:

all Christians believe and are obligated to accept the Trinity.

"My Father is greater than I" in John 14:28, or Stephen seeing Christ on the right hand of the Father in Acts 7:56? Or Luke 22:42 "Father, if it be Thy will, take this cup away from me; yet not my will but Thine be done." If they are literally the same person, how does this make any sense?

Christians should be one even as the Father and Son are one. Not one substance, but one in mind and heart and purpose. What else can the unity of Christians mean? And that is the kind of unity we find in the Godhead. Yes, there are three persons - and three Beings. They can be called One and fully function as One. The Son represents the Father, only does the will of the Father, and is the author of our Salvation, acting for the Father. They are one - but not in the abstract, bodiless "one substance" concept of the Greek philosophers.

element13 wrote:

"Mormonism differs from biblical Christianity in several areas. Mormons do not believe, for example, that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ. Mormons must work their way to heaven."

We don't teach you are saved by works alone, claiming that we do is a lie. It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that most Christian churches you are saved by faith alone, and that works don't really matter. Yet James 2:24 explicitly teaches that faith alone is NOT sufficient for salvation: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Salvation by "faith alone" directly and explicitly contradicts the New Testament, which says that salvation is NOT by faith alone. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17), and if dead, it is clearly not sufficient for salvation. In fact, even Paul states that even if he had "all faith" but lacked charity, he would be nothing (1 Cor. 13:3), and concludes that among faith, hope, and charity, charity is the greatest (1 Cor. 13:13). The idea that faith alone is sufficient is simply not what the Bible teaches.

The truth is that we are saved by the grace of Christ which is offered to us through a covenant, a two-way contract: if we accept Christ and do our part, following and obeying him, then Christ does everything else, forgiving us, cleansing us, healing us, and giving us power to return to the presence of the Father - not because we earned it, but because we accepted the terms upon which he offers his infinite grace and mercy. Even in the days of Moses, the Lord proclaimed that God "shows mercy to those that keep his commandments" (Deut. 5:10), a principle that has not changed.

This doctrine is clear, powerful, and beautiful, and is the core doctrine of the Mormon Church, for which we are called non-Christian by our enemies and even by sincere, well-meaning people.

Please define the following words according to Mormon Doctrine...

Grace

Works

Faith

Thank You...
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element13 wrote:

Mormonism teaches that God is not the only deity and that we all have the potential of becoming gods.

Here you are making a claim about Mormon doctrine, when you do not understand what that doctrine is and what it is not. We absolutely do not believe that we will ever be independent of God or no longer subject to Him. We do not believe that we will take away His glory, but we only add to it by following Christ. For us, there is and always will be a need to be subject to God the Eternal Father, the Almighty God, the "God of gods and Lord of lords," as Deuteronomy 10:17 puts it. He is the One whom we worship and always will worship.

To those who follow Christ and receive His grace and power, great promises are extended. We are promised that we can receive "the fullness of God" through the grace of Christ (Ephesians 3:19). Christ said that we can become one with Him, as He is one with the Father (John 17:20-23). Paul said that Christians can become "joint heirs with Christ" and be glorified with Him (Romans 8:14-18). He challenged us to pursue the example of Christ "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Philippians 2:5,6). Peter said that through Christ, we can "put on the divine nature" and receive great and precious promises (2 Peter 1:3-4). Those who follow Christ can become "like Him" (1 John 3:2), can "inherit all things" (Rev. 21:7), and can be kings and priests before God (Rev. 1:6), sitting with Christ in His throne (Rev. 3:21). Critics, how do you explain away such scriptures? They disclose an important aspect of early Christianity, the doctrine of "theosis," holding that man can become like God.

The term "gods" is what God Himself has chosen to describe the divine potential of His sons and daughters. The possibility of multiple "godlike" beings seems to be what Paul referred to when he said there are "gods many and lords many, but to us there is but one God, the Father" (1 Cor. 8:5,6). It also seems to be what David meant in Psalm 8:4,5 when he said that man is "a little lower than the gods." The King James Version (and most translations) gives "lower than the angels," but the Hebrew word is "elohim" which means "gods." Commentators have long explained that this term, literally meaning "gods," is describing angels - divine beings serving or representing God.

The existence of other godlike beings is suggested by multiple scriptures that describe God as a "God of gods" (Deut. 10:17; Joshua 22:2, and Psalm 136:2). That phrase makes no sense if false pagan gods are meant, but perhaps it refers to angels as gods. Psalm 82:1 likewise says that God "standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods." Scholars know that the ancient Jews, including those in New Testament times, that angels were often described as "gods." ...

What do the following Mormon writings say about God?

Alma 11:21-31, 44,- “And this Zeezrom began to question Amulek, saying: Will ye answer me a few questions which I shall ask you? Now Zeezrom was a man who was expert in the devices of the devil, that he might destroy that which was good; therefore, he said unto Amulek: Will ye answer the questions which I shall put unto you?

"22 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, if it be according to the Spirit of the Lord, which is in me; for I shall say nothing which is contrary to the Spirit of the Lord. And Zeezrom said unto him: Behold, here are six onties of silver, and all these will I give thee if thou wilt deny the existence of a Supreme Being

"23 Now Amulek said: O thou child of hell, why tempt ye me? Knowest thou that the righteous yieldeth to no such temptations? 24 Believest thou that there is no God? I say unto you, Nay, thou knowest that there is a God, but thou lovest that lucre more than him. 25 And now thou hast lied before God unto me. Thou saidst unto me—Behold these six onties, which are of great worth, I will give unto thee—when thou hadst it in thy heart to retain them from me; and it was only thy desire that I should deny the true and living God, that thou mightest have cause to destroy me. And now behold, for this great evil thou shalt have thy reward.

"26 And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? 27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. 28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?

"29 And he answered, No.

"30 Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?

"31 And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me...

"44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be are stored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil."

Mormon 7:7 - "And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end."

According to these Mormon writings - what do they state about God?

What do you think about what these Mormon writings stating that there being only One true God?

Is the Book of Mormon wrong or current Mormon doctrine about the plurality of gods wrong?

Since Joseph Smith claimed that the book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth - then how could it be wrong stating there is only One true God and teach plurality of gods?

Again, How can you say Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct gods in mission, purpose, and glory, and still there only be one God in light of Alma 11:26-27?

What do these KJV bible verses read and say to you?

Isaiah 42:8. "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images". KJV

Isaiah 48:11 "For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another." KJV

How can God share His glory since He stated that He will not share His Glory?

Next Read:

Isa 46:10, "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure..."

Isa 43:12, 13 "I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. 13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?" KJV
What does God mean in Isa 43:13 "..I will work, and who shall let it?" KJV

What do these KJV verses say about God?

Psalms 33:11, "The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations." KJV

Isa 14:24, "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand..." KJV

Eph 1:11, "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will..." KJV

Is anyone else included in these verses - sharing in the oneness of God's personal counsel and will?

Regarding Christian Orthodox doctrine and its history - it never taught as you suggested and read into the text as Joseph Smith sought - to become another exalted god from among many. The Devi's lie recorded in Gen 3:5 states the sin was to become another god. If there be only one God as Alma 11:26-29 and Mormon 7:7 states and no other - how could there be many?
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I hope you can see that there are way too many inconsistencies in Mormonism and contradictions. Even within their-own writings...

Have a good day!

It is time for you to meet the real Jesus the the Bible speaks about - would you like that?
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I like Christ and all though I believe he was merely an enlightened man who was in communing with demons and able to direct these forces like Soloman did. Demons are alot closer to human nature as we're both basically evil but if you have proper knowledge there is much to gain from consorting with demons. First off demons will posses you and this is frightening to the uninitiated this can do all kinds of crazy things even cause levitation (which I've done, but only on one occasion). Angels on the other hand are to good for us and as far as I know they have nothing to offer in the form of direct enlightenment or granting supernatural powers, they are simply to far above us to relate, but demons can. Demons are very enlightening and Satan is god of this material world and is always trying to contact us just most are not open enough to receive his awsome power, he is the forbiding fruit that god is talking about. You have to force him to look at you, he tempts you but it's up to you to finish the invocation.God on the other hand is god of the spirtual world and is not in contact with material beings while we are alive. Both Satan and god are to be respected, thats why they said give unto ceaser that which is his, There talking about Satan while your living in the material world.I don't recomend that everyone consort with demons, most people aren't capable and then even if they did they would just go insane or die but for a select few there is much to be gained.

ochotseat wrote:

voicingmaster wrote: 2 Corinthians 4:4 "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. ""?

Ok, it sounds like you're not getting the point. The JWs have their own Bible, which has an altered verse that refers to Jesus as a god, not God. The verse you referred to is an allusion to sin and the evils of the world. The JWs don't consider Jesus as God nor do they believe in the Trinity. They are a cult.

voicingmaster wrote: As for human judges being "gods":

Psalms 82:6 "I myself have said, 'YOU are gods, And all of YOU are sons of the Most High. "
""?

Again, that wasn't supposed to be literal. This is supported by the succeeding verse:

Psalm 82:7 (New International Version)
7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."

voicingmaster wrote: So you see, calling Jesus "a god" is not Polytheism, but rather acknowledging His power. Jesus is more powerful than Satan and the human judges, so why not call Jesus "a god" if those two are called "gods"?

Sounds like you have some connection to the hellbound JWs.

correct. I've been doing a good amount of study in this recently and grew up in the JW's. They are not polytheistic. to them, Jesus was the first created thing and existed in spirit as an archangel before he was born a man. The John 1:1 issue is their specific interpretation of the Greek word THEOS without the HA in front of it. which could mean God in general or divine. Since HA THEOS was used in the statement preceding it, the witnesses chose divine and interpreted it to mean "a god" as a sign of authority and power, but not the same as "the God". What John is trying to tell us is that the person that is "the word" is not the same as the person who is "the father" but they are both God.

There are other places in the NWT Bible that are tweaked and one that is blatantly changed to try and hide the identity of Jesus. All in all, it's not the worst English translation I've ever read and i still use it more than my other Bible (NKJV)

Pretty much all of that stuff is useless for identifying a cult, unless you accept all mainstream religions as cults, which I suppose you could do.

Why not just use simple logic. Do they ask you to do idiotic things which are supposed to impress God or get you salvation or whatever? It is best to read the bible yourself and stop listening to others. Jesus said don't judge, and here you call the Unitarian, Morman, and Jahovah Witness relgions to be cults.

Matthew 7:29 was mentioned, and I thought it interesting.
"And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

What is "lawlessness"? Those who practice a belief that the laws don't exist or are no longer valid, perhaps?

Almost all churches completely ignore the law of God. Jesus said the law is still valid, yet they completely ignore them. For example, the law of God says not to work on Saturday, yet churches seem to think Sunday is the day you are not supposed to work. There's probably very few christians who even know that the Sabbath Day is Saturday.

Did you know that God's law (Deu 17:15-17) forbids putting a king over you that will make himself much wealthier than you. If that applies to a king, I'm sure it also applies to presidents and congressmen. Do you think it is following the Law of God to allow congressmen to make $250,000 a year, while the rest of the country starves?

Tony

I want in on this friendly fray! Is this site serious about publishing the following about Mormons:

Mormonism differs from biblical Christianity in several areas. Mormons do not believe, for example, that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ. Mormons must work their way to heaven. (B. R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine (Salt Lake City:1958), p. 191.)

This is a great example of irresponsible, unfair and even a slanderous post! I understand that people have an ax to grind with Mormons and so they call us a cult and non-christian but nothing is further from the truth. I love the Bible and I love truth where ever it may be found.

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I can say that salvation comes only in and through faith in the Savior. I can't think of anything more fundamental in all our doctrine.

Mike, You're welcome to be involved on our board. If you haven't already, please make sure you read our Board Purpose and Discussion guidelines and as long as you're willing and able to work within those, you should be fine.

Note that this thread has been dormant for a while so some of the participants that were active then may not be now.

Do you have any source to your claim in terms of Official Morman Doctrine? While most on this board who identify themselves as Christians would not view Mormons as within the realm of orthodoxy, I think most would agree that someone could be in a Mormon Church and identify themselves as Mormon and believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and thus be saved. The question in that instance wouldn't necessarily be what they believe or what they say Mormons believe but rather what the actual doctrine and polity of LDS says and there's a great deal of conflict there even if there are some areas of commonality.

I've read the regulations concerning posts. Doesn't it emphasize the importance of being civil? Some of the posts grossly misrepresent the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Some obviously are simply interested in bashing. I request that the post reviewers more carefully consider what's allowed.

You ask what source I have to substatiate my position on LDS people being Christian. One of the Church's official sites states, http://mormon.org/jesus-christ/ ,

Jesus Christ is the only way by which we can return to live with our Heavenly Father. Jesus suffered and was crucified for the sins of the world, giving each of God’s children the gift of repentance and forgiveness. Only by His mercy and grace can anyone be saved.

It's a thrill for me to talk to anyone that sincerely enjoys learning from the holy scriptures and searches for the truth. In fact I spent two years in Mexico looking for such people. The LDS people have no desire to force their beliefs upon any. We respect even defend the beliefs of other religions.

I don't blame people for thinking that Mormons have radical beliefs. But if I'm so misguided why not win me over with kindness? Why not

Think of [*the LDS] below them as if [they*] really were fellow-passengers to the grave, and not another race of creatures bound on other journeys.

?

There is much about this site that is inspiring and wonderful. To make it even better I'd request that the reviewers be a little more careful about allowing obvious mean-spirited, Ebenezer like posts on their site.

All the Best!

Mormonism is HIGHLY demonic... It is most certainly not Christ based.. Would you like to debate me on this?

Gman wrote:Mormonism is HIGHLY demonic... It is most certainly not Christ based.. Would you like to debate me on this?

Why debate a Mormon??? Mormonism is polytheistic while Christianity is monotheistic. Mormonism has Jesus as the product of a union between god-the-Father (a former human himself!) and the ''heavenly mother'' who is god-the-father's wife. Mormonism sees the Bible as perverted in its modern translations...I could go on but you get the point.

FL

My official Church web site source can't compete with your official sources for Mormon doctrine. I'm a one-legged man in a butt-kickin' contest. You win. I must look for a different web site with unlearned and not so Christian people so that I may brainwash them with my demonic doctrine and perverted KJV Bible. bawhaha! (evil laugh)

Mike Harris wrote:My official Church web site source can't compete with your official sources for Mormon doctrine. I'm a one-legged man in a butt-kickin' contest. You win. I must look for a different web site with unlearned and not so Christian people so that I may brainwash them with my demonic doctrine and perverted KJV Bible. bawhaha! (evil laugh)

The KJV is fine. What is perverted is Joseph Smith's ''Inspired'' version. Even worse is the Book of Mormon, and all other LDS publications. Forget your official church website; stop attending your Mormon church. If you want to know who Jesus is, this is what you must do.

You are welcome to stay here if you want to know about Christianity.

FL