God's Knowing

[kateliz]

Kurieuo, I'm glad we agree more than we both thought! Do you then believe in predestination? I thought you didn't, but now you make me think you do. So you believe that we are predestined based on God's knowledge of our future choices, if I'm correct.

But what's the point of predestination then? What would it do if we still had free-will? Merely give God the ability to work with people based on their choice or refusal of Him even before they make that decision?

I still say it's silly. The whole thing of choosing one world situation over another world situation where in, (all but two options: one where all love God and the other where all hate God,) would still have some believing and others not. Why this one in particular? What's so special about it that makes it such a strong preference of God's? I think this whole thing on other world options is very silly.

The whole world-view that results from free-will is ridiculus. I used to believe in it myself, but lo and behold, I read different in the Bible! And that Exodus verse on Pharoh proves nothing of the sort! God raised him up to be so hard-nosed and rebellious against God. God then had to temporarily soften with a strong hand that hardness. What's the problem with that?

If you believe that God can justly remove mercy, which all of us filthy sinners needs to even see Christ for who He is, then why can't He remove His mercy so that evil can be done? It is not, despite it being hard to understand, contrary to His nature at all. He is the Righteous Judge, and any mercy He gives us is a free gift. So if He withholds His mercy for certain situations than He still retains His character.

And you all like to talk about freedom so much, tell me this: if God gives us freedom through free-will, (and a certain ratio of unbelievers to believers, as Forge believes freedom requires,) then what about freedom from our sinful natures right off the bat so that we are capable of choosing Him with our free-will? Our sinful natures are so powerful in us and penetrate us so deeply that we could never choose God on our own... if we had free-will.

We are spiritually dead in our sins, as the Bible says, and that means that we don't have the required life to reach up and take hold of Christ's Hand. We are dead and cannot choose. God has to reach down Himself and take our lifeless bodies and impart Christ's life into them for us to be favorable towards God at all. We are so filthy that we cannot choose God. Evil cannot choose good. Sin cannot condemn itself. We have absolutely no good in us before salvation that would enable us to choose God.

Free-will is an unbiblical crock that leads to parallel dimensions and people with six arms! (J/K, if you couldn't tell.) Free-will is an unbiblical crock that leads to multitudes of other false theologies.

The End!

[LittleShepherd]

We have absolutely no good in us before salvation that would enable us to choose God.

That's not completely true. I mean, it is true that we have no good in us of our own before Salvation, but that's not the same as saying we have no good in us at all.

You're forgetting that one little gift that God imparted on us after the Fall -- the conscience. God's law is written on the hearts of all men, no matter how sinful and depraved, and gives us the necessary tools to see our condition for what it is and to reach for Christ.

So yes, our sin nature is through and through, but God's moral law still guides us in truth and gives us what we need to make the right decision when the time comes. It would then be our free will that allows us to choose to ignore it and continue in our sin, or to reject our sin and follow our God-given conscience. Emphasis on "God-given."

I see no problem with this. Of course, a purely Biblical standpoint will give you nothing but headaches. It has verses that can support either viewpoint, and I'd rather not worry about it unless God presses on my heart to do so(which he hasn't). Ultimately, it makes no difference. If God chooses not to make it crystal clear to me, I can live with that.

[Kurieuo]

We have absolutely no good in us before salvation that would enable us to choose God.

That's not completely true. I mean, it is true that we have no good in us of our own before Salvation, but that's not the same as saying we have no good in us at all.

See this is wear Calvinism goes too far in its total depravity approach, although I do very much agree with its grace-oriented theology.

God's image is nothing to be scoffed at, and if we're made in His image (Genesis 1:26-27), and God's image is good, then it is wrong to say we have absolutely no good within us. I've heard a reformed reply invoking the fall as having destroyed God's image within us, but Genesis 9:6 lays this to rest which says: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

Kurieuo.

[CountryBoy]

Kateliz,

I love that name, my daughter's name is Katie Elizabeth, after my and my wife's grandmothers.

But that extremist calvanistic stuff reeks of a cult. Is it considered a cult? If not, I hereby give in cult status, God knew I was gonna make it a cult and thus it is so.

[Felgar]

Kateliz, you are correct that God COULD be fair, in which case we would all be condemned. However, God promised that He would NOT be fair, but would impart grace instead. It has nothing to do with what God could do and might be justified in doing, but rather what He's going to do. Jesus died for all mankind, period.

When I have time I will form a biblical argument against you, but right now I simply cannot spend the time to research the matter thoroughly enough.

[kateliz]

I have responses for all of you! (Feel like a kid in a candy store! J/K, I don't take pleasure in having to correct people who should know better! )

That's not completely true. I mean, it is true that we have no good in us of our own before Salvation, but that's not the same as saying we have no good in us at all.

I was concerned that we'd finally disagree, and on this issue! Just had a feeling about it, I guess! Listen, what you wrote contradicts itself because having a conscience doesn't mean we have some good in us. Consciences do not automatically equate goodness in the same way the existence of the Ten Commandments equates following it. If we "have no good in us of our own before Salvation," and having a conscience doesn't mean we have that good, (it being not of us but of God, although even after salvation the only good we have is Christ,) then we still do not have that good!

gives us the necessary tools to see our condition for what it is and to reach for Christ.

It has the potential in and of itself to let us see something of our condition, but it does no give us the power to "reach for Christ." That is a false assumption.

gives us what we need to make the right decision when the time comes.

Nope, nope, nope. It does not empower us to do good.

a purely Biblical standpoint will give you nothing but headaches. It has verses that can support either viewpoint

Not unless you can see the apparently paradoxical point where truth lies! It took me a little bit to find that biblical balance between a Good God, determinsism and responsibility, but I found it and all is clear! No headaches in this head regarding it!

See this is wear Calvinism goes too far in its total depravity approach

I do happen to agree with Calvinism on a lot of things! Total depravity is fundamental to my relationship with God, (and it works out very nicely that way! Wouldn't have it any other way, and boy would it be hard for God to work in me without it, that I can tell you!) But by what do you judge that it's too far? By your own logic? By your own assumptions? By your own inability to accept anything else? You're biased on this and so miss the mark, (as a lot of you are who believe in free-will, if not all of you.)

God's image is good, then it is wrong to say we have absolutely no good within us.

This is based on faulty understanding of being made in God's image. What He gave us to make us in His image didn't necessarily include any spiritul good, just our characteristics being like Him. That's my view on it anyway, and I don't believe the Bible says any different.

my daughter's name is Katie Elizabeth

My first and middle are also Katherine Elizabeth. People call me Katie, but on here I s'pose you can call me anything you want as long as I know you're talking about me! I kind of like being called Kate, and my grandpa used to call me Liz.

Kateliz, you are correct that God COULD be fair, in which case we would all be condemned. However, God promised that He would NOT be fair, but would impart grace instead. It has nothing to do with what God could do and might be justified in doing, but rather what He's going to do. Jesus died for all mankind, period.

God could be fair and not condemn all of us, but some. God did not promise that He would not be fair with everyone, and He did not promise that He would impart grace to everyone. And He's not going to send everyone to heaven. Not everyone is going to heaven, period.

Bring it on! I'll take all of you with both hands tied behind my back, both legs cut off, my eyes plucked out, my ears hacked off, my tongue yanked out and my teeth pulled! Not a pretty picture, ( ) but I'd whoop all of you in that grotesque, disabled manner! "Can't touch this."

[Felgar]

Bring it on! I'll take all of you with both hands tied behind my back, both legs cut off, my eyes plucked out, my ears hacked off, my tongue yanked out and my teeth pulled!

You are like the Knight: "Come back here, 'Tis merely a flesh-wound! I'll bite your kneecaps off!" (not sure if you'll get that, but believe me it's funny)

You are defeated, or at least you will be when you read this article. I don't think I would come to any better understanding than this, no matter how much I studied and prepared an argument. The author, Cooper P. Abrams III has a perfect understanding of election and free will, and how they work together for our salvation. http://www.bible-truth.org/election.htm

Just to wet your appetite, here are a few excerpts:

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4).

"Who (speaking of Christ) gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Timothy 2:6).

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead" (2 Corinthians 5:14).

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to very creature" (Mark 16:15).

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" (Acts 17:30).

"Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18).

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Hebrews 2:9).

[regarding the above verses]
Clearly each of the above Scriptures teach that Christ died for all men everywhere and desires all men to be saved.

[And a final conclusion]
I read and studied the Bible for a number of years and it never occurred to that God would reject anyone who would believe. That was the Gospel...the offer of salvation to those who would believe.

You would claim that God only chose some to be saved, and either God is lying in 1 Timothy 2:4, or you are wrong Kate. So please read the entire article very carefully (and it does contain the proper understanding of your Romans passages), and if you still disagree then I have nothing further to add.

To everyone else, I encourage you that God has offerred salvation to anyone who will believe in Jesus; He did NOT cut off that offer to anyone, so believe freely and without fear that through the sacrifice of Jesus you will live eternally. That is the true Gospel of Christ which I am commanded to share with everyone!

[bizzt]

I'll take all of you with both hands tied behind my back...my tongue yanked out and my teeth pulled!

Now this would Definately BE NICE!!! First she would not be able to TYPE WOO HOO Next SHE won't be able to talk or smile YAY

[Kurieuo]

See this is wear Calvinism goes too far in its total depravity approach

I do happen to agree with Calvinism on a lot of things! Total depravity is fundamental to my relationship with God, (and it works out very nicely that way! Wouldn't have it any other way, and boy would it be hard for God to work in me without it, that I can tell you!)

Actually, if you aren't in control of your actions, then you don't have a relationship with God, but rather God working through your body has a relationship with himself. You seem to just dismiss free will, and then keep invoking "me" and "I' (e.g., "and boy would it be hard for God to work in me...")—sorry but on your view you're just a puppet whose every action has been predetermined by God. In other words, you don't really exist or have a say. In fact I believe strict adherence to determinism generally leads to a type of Eastern mysticism philosophy of us being one with the whole universe and everything being "God."

Now if God controls us, then we can't really love God, for such love requires a free volition on our part. A puppet can't love the puppeteer. The puppeteer can perhaps love himself through the puppet, but do you really think God so vain that He would love Himself through us? Such makes a mockery out of Christ, who came to die for us out of true love. If He only came so that God could love Himself more through some of us who receive eternal life, then to put bluntly, such seems rather idiotic and even blasphemous to me.

I'd recommend checking out a thread at http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... .php?t=293. I believe bassman's argument requires an answer from you since you believe in determinism without free will. And since he is a material determinist, much of my response to him would likely also be applicable to you.

But by what do you judge that it's too far? By your own logic? By your own assumptions? By your own inability to accept anything else? You're biased on this and so miss the mark, (as a lot of you are who believe in free-will, if not all of you.)

Well your questions cut both ways, and essentially don't do anything to help your own argument or beliefs. For example, by what do you judge that "free will" is not possible? By your own logic? By your own assumptions? By your own inability to accept anything else? The fact that these questions can be equally applied to both sides just shows they add nothing except perhaps irrelevant rhetoric. However, if it must be known I came to my position from reading varying positions and books, studying varying positions on the mind/soul-body issue, and using a lot of the reasoning ability God gave us when He created us in His image! As Martin Luther said, "scripture and right reason."

God's image is good, then it is wrong to say we have absolutely no good within us.

This is based on faulty understanding of being made in God's image. What He gave us to make us in His image didn't necessarily include any spiritul good, just our characteristics being like Him. That's my view on it anyway, and I don't believe the Bible says any different.

Righteous is a characteristic of God. Intelligence is another. Creativity another. If we were created in God's image who has these characteristics, it seems wrong-headed to believe, righteousness aside, that He left out any way for us to creatively express ourselves.

Kurieuo.

[CountryBoy]

K wrote

and using a lot of the reasoning ability God gave us when He created us in His image!

Yep, we need to add some of that good ole common sense to the mix. Come on Kateliz, God doesn't want a bunch of puppets that can't decide if they want to follow Him or not. Don't you think He's a little bigger than that?

[kateliz]

Felgar, I have not read your article yet but plan to soon. Kurieuo I read a fraction of that conversation but found it an inadequate response to my views, though I do believe in material determinism right now.

Look, I don't have a problem with being a sort of "puppet" because there's more to it than that. It's all ultimately for God's glory, (sin can glorify God in certain ways, and especially when it has to react to Good.) So being for God's glory, and the whole story planned by God for this, I have no problem with being a puppet helping Him play this out!

He has so made it that our "puppethood" isn't really puppethood anyway. This is a difficult concept to grasp, and I'm not finding words to explain it, but I guess you might say that He designed it for us to not directly experience it and so allows us to have, entirely, a free-will type experience while on strings. We are inside of the puppet body which is being directed by the strings, but inside of this puppet body is our true selves that witnesses and experiences the whole show from the inside of that body. It is there that we can love God without it being God loving Himself, and it is there that God teaches and trains us in our relationship to Him. It is there that God's purpose for humanity is realized.

I see so much more than determinism and free-will in all this; I see God's glory. That is the largest picture and the one under which all else falls. Nothing is more important than that.

And if we have free-will and God does not interfere with that, how can He be in control of what happens on earth? How can He fulfill prophesies when the fulfillment is dependent on free-will? How can He move people, (which is all over the Bible,) if we have undefiled free-will? He'd have to play a Hands Off kind of game if my logic is correct on this, and that is definetely not what He does.

And He doesn't allow free-will to be acted on in a natural way if it's true. He'd have to act on potential, but what kind of freedom is it if God doesn't let us act our own choices out for ourselves? Paul is a good example of this.

This post is not nearly what I would have it, but I'm surprisingly getting tired and wanted to respond anyway.

[Felgar]

2 quick things, though really the theological viewpoint presented in that article captured my beliefs perfectly.

I see God's glory. That is the largest picture and the one under which all else falls. Nothing is more important than that.

I believe that God's love is more important. Without it, we would not have the promise of an eternal loving relationship with Him, and to me that's the largest picture - and that relationship is 2-way which is what makes it so special. God is glory in and of Himself, He doesn't need to control the world to show that.

And if we have free-will and God does not interfere with that, how can He be in control of what happens on earth? How can He fulfill prophesies when the fulfillment is dependent on free-will? How can He move people, (which is all over the Bible,) if we have undefiled free-will?

Simply, He can do that because He knows who will choose Him and who won't, and with that He can direct the lives of those who love Him for His own purpose. That's the part that's predestined - God's plan for our salvation and then for our lives, rather than each individual's salvation. The article explains that within the context of the Romans 9 passage.

[CountryBoy]

Kateliz Wrote:[/quote]
And if we have free-will and God does not interfere with that, how can He be in control of what happens on earth? How can He fulfill prophesies when the fulfillment is dependent on free-will? How can He move people, (which is all over the Bible,) if we have undefiled free-will?
[quote]

That is absolutely mind boggling. It's like you totally miss Christianity and God You say, "how can He move people, if we have undefiled free-will"

Dang girl, that's the WHOLE thing. God gets to us God shows us Himself , God Loves us and we love Him back, enough to WANT to give our money, and our time and ourselves . That's the whole big enormous miraclous thing. We have a free will, yet we choose to do His will over ours. Now, that little tinsey god you've been talking about isn't even able to do that , this BIG OLE LOVING GOD we're talking performs REAL miracles by loving us enough to change our wills into HIS. Now that's what I'm talking about. My God is Bigger than that little ole god you're forced to worship. You're almost there girl.

[Felgar]

God gets to us God shows us Himself , God Loves us and we love Him back, enough to WANT to give our money, and our time and ourselves . That's the whole big enormous miraclous thing. We have a free will, yet we choose to do His will over ours. Now, that little tinsey god you've been talking about isn't even able to do that , this BIG OLE LOVING GOD we're talking performs REAL miracles by loving us enough to change our wills into HIS. Now that's what I'm talking about.

Condesention aside, I definately agree - it's all about love.

[kateliz]

Sorry you guys, but you totally got me wrong! Felgar, that article may very well state your beliefs, but it doesn't touch my own, (from what I've read so far.) And so it cannot be used to counter my beliefs.

Simply, He can do that because He knows who will choose Him and who won't, and with that He can direct the lives of those who love Him for His own purpose.

God gets to us God shows us Himself , God Loves us and we love Him back, enough to WANT to give our money, and our time and ourselves . That's the whole big enormous miraclous thing. We have a free will, yet we choose to do His will over ours.

But that doesn't work for those who don't love God!!! You both forget that God uses people who reject Him, and directs their lives for His purposes as well! How could, with free-will, He do things like cause pagan nations in the OT to war against Israel as a punishment against them? God states that He had the other nation go to war with them! This is but one example of such, but many, many others I've found in the Bible. Your theories fall flat on their faces because of this.

And CountryBoy, I'd say my God is bigger than yours, ("My dad can beat up your dad!" ) because He doesn't have to beg and plead for people to love Him and work for Him. He has the whole package covered, and all while retaining His nature in a way that retains it better than if you had free-will. I think you guys don't understand how God can do things this way, and because of that only see this other option of how God could work. God can do this and retain His nature. The Righteous Judge and Merciful One can at any time, retaining His nature, (even expressing it,) give mercy to some and not to others. What's so difficult with the concept? The Righteous Judge and Merciful One can give mercy to some and not to others.

And as for Christ having died for everyone and wanting everyone to be saved, it's a paradoxical-looking truth, (as God's truths often are,) that when the balance is found make sense of all the Bible says on the topic. He does want everyone to be saved, but He also wants to use vessels of destruction for His purpose of displaying His glory through Creation.

Here's another apparent paradox: Genesis 6:6-7. God regrets having made man because he was so sinful... but how could God truly regret it when He made them knowing that would happen? If God regreted them to the point where He wanted to destroy them, why would He have made them anyway? Because of His ultimate purpose with His Creation. He regretted it because they were sinful, but depsite the regret He had other reasons to keep them around. Think of this: what if no one out of their own free-will was on God's side? He would've destroyed all creation and said, "Well that was a waste of time!"

But no, it couldn't have happened like that because as we all know God has a purpose for all that's to happen on earth, beginning to end. He put Noah there on purpose. He had only one person love Him to prove the point of how sinful we are and the punishment that we deserve. There's a point to the whole story, and God designed the whole scenario to happen for that reason.

He regretted having made man but at the same time also didn't regret it because He had a purpose in it. Noah wasn't the factor that caused God to create us in the first place, "I know I will regret making man, but because I know that Noah will be there for me I guess I'll have to make them anyway." Or, "For Noah's sake I will make man, which I will regret having done." How can He have said He regrets having made man knowing that the future of them will yield so many more people for Him? He regretted it, (honestly regretted it,) but He also didn't regret it. In the same way He desires all to be saved because of His great love, but at the same can also desire that some not be saved for His ultimate purpose.

Here's how I see the whole reason for Creation. God is. There He is existing in eternity by Himself. Because God is righteous, loving, the Judge, patient, comforting, glorious, and all His other qualities He would need or want to express and use them, and that for His glory. He's so glorious, (and glory, if I'm right, is supposed to be seen by others as a part of what it is.) So He has this plan He comes up with in order to fully glorify and express Himself and so that He can express Himself in all His glory for eternity future.

Time starts with Creation. So there was God in static being, (or interacting with Himself as so many like to say,) and then He begins the story and creates what's needed to be created and starts up the clocks. The whole story is set start to "finish," and of necessity includes ones to love, judge, war against, comfort, be patient with, and all to reveal His glory to in all it's forms, and as a way of expressing Himself and being who He is. There has to be an eternal damnation if there is to be time so that God can constantly be the Judge and the Vengeful One. There isn't an eternal damnation just because God decided to make all men's souls eternal. He could've chosen to cut off the life of the soul instead of sending it to be punished forever. It's for His glory as the Judge and Vengeful One. Poor God if it wasn't! Sending His creation there for all that time merely because they were selfish and didn't want someone to have more control over their lives then they do! My God is bigger than that in that He would feel the pain over it, (unless He purposely has Himself forget about them? There's something about forgetting either what happened on earth or forgetting those eternally punished that I don't remember too well,) but He would ultimately have a pro-active reason for it. And God is so glorious that His glory is a quite adequate reason for such pain and suffering to exist; it would exist for His glory.

Hard concepts maybe, but very important ones. No, not necessary for daily life, (except the sovereignty issue,) but important nonetheless.

And yes God has called us to preach to all people. That's part of the plan. Part of the expression of His glory is that His Children work for Him and that vessels of destruction are to reject Him, and He is to show His love for them, (which He will always have,) through this. And He still retains His nature. He expresses it, actually.

I'd say it takes a pretty big God for all of this to be true! And it takes a big God to be able to be so apparently paradoxal and yet to not be. It shows just how great His glory is too that such pain and suffering as hell and the lake of fire can exist just for it. The more pain in it the greater His glory because His glory must so exceed it as to make it worthwhile. And that would take a heck of a lot of glory!

Oh, and I'd say that glory is greater than love because love is something that glorifies. Love is one of the qualities of God, but glory reigns over all of His qualities. Love is inside of glory, not the other way around. "His glory is in His love," you might say, and, "All of His other qualities lies in His love." But all of His qualities, even love, lie inside the light of His glory.[/i]