Evidence for God from Science

ochotseat wrote:We have background checks and assault weapons are illegal. What more do you want?

More control over these things. How do you think the kids from Columbine got their guns at that trade show? Lack of gun control. How do you think that kids in gangs get theirs? How do you think that kids find guns in their houses and then are able to play with them and kill their siblings and friends? Lack of control. Even if you teach your kids to not touch the gun in your nightstand and they listen perfectly, it doesn't prevent their friends to take it out while your kid is in the bathroom! This is what I mean.

kateliz wrote:

ochotseat wrote:We have background checks and assault weapons are illegal. What more do you want?

More control over these things. How do you think the kids from Columbine got their guns at that trade show? Lack of gun control. How do you think that kids in gangs get theirs? How do you think that kids find guns in their houses and then are able to play with them and kill their siblings and friends? Lack of control. Even if you teach your kids to not touch the gun in your nightstand and they listen perfectly, it doesn't prevent their friends to take it out while your kid is in the bathroom! This is what I mean.

I disagree with more control. Instead, more accountability is what I would like to see.

From my own experience and family history, I can see how gun control is entirely ineffective in helping the situation. The problem is not that the kids got guns; the real problem is that those kids decided that they wanted to masacre their fellow man.

As an example, my uncle at age 12 was driving the family car down country roads looking for coyotes and badgers to shoot. He's an upstanding citizen who has never had an issue with the law or anything related to guns. He also never hurt himself either. That is because he was taught responsibility and accountability; with the root cause taken care of, the guns and other things like it become moot.

That's all fine and dandy if you can get everyone in the world to be responsible with their usage of guns, but that's not going to happen today.

kateliz wrote:We should consider here what the differences are, if there are any, between what's acceptable for the individual Christian and the government. If the government, (being comprised of some Christians,) is right in executing certain criminals, then that would mean there is a huge difference between individual Christian actions and Christian actions through the government. .

Virtually all our top politicians are Christians.

kateliz wrote: Can a Christian, being commanded to not kill, pull the switch for an electric chair or gas chamber, and can they inject poison into the veins of the convicted? It's hard to see the two of these being reconciled. I don't believe Jesus said anything like, "Though shalt not kill, except if you're working for the government." In the OT it was allowed, but Jesus said and/or implied different. .

Jesus didn't imply anything about the death penalty when it comes to serious criminals. It's amusing that some Catholics and liberal Protestants misinterpret Christ's words in order to abolish a policy that protects law-abiding citizens, many of whom are Christians.

kateliz wrote: And if you don't believe in the death penalty than you couldn't believe in war if you were to be consistant. .

Which is why pacifist Christianity isn't as popular.

kateliz wrote: More control over these things. How do you think the kids from Columbine got their guns at that trade show? Lack of gun control. How do you think that kids in gangs get theirs? How do you think that kids find guns in their houses and then are able to play with them and kill their siblings and friends? Lack of control. Even if you teach your kids to not touch the gun in your nightstand and they listen perfectly, it doesn't prevent their friends to take it out while your kid is in the bathroom! This is what I mean..

We have background checks and a ban on assault weapons. There is nothing wrong with law-abiding citizens owning a regular firearm, and most Americans agree with this. The Columbine shooters obtained guns from gun dealers who ignored the law, so punish the corrupt dealers, NOT innocent gun owners. Guns don't kill people; people kill people. Most gang members obtain guns illegally, so your point is moot.

kateliz wrote:That's all fine and dandy if you can get everyone in the world to be responsible with their usage of guns, but that's not going to happen today.

So the government should be liable for every individual behaving responsibly and making the right choices for himself?

ochotseat wrote:Virtually all our top politicians are Christians.

At least nominally. Not all of them are, and I didn't intend to give out percentages.

ochotseat wrote:some Catholics and liberal Protestants misinterpret Christ's words in order to abolish a policy that protects law-abiding citizens, many of whom are Christians.

Then it shows you they're concerned more about what they believe is truth than their own lives and welfare.

ochotseat wrote:There is nothing wrong with law-abiding citizens owning a regular firearm, and most Americans agree with this.

As do I.

ochotseat wrote:The Columbine shooters obtained guns from gun dealers who ignored the law, so punish the corrupt dealers, NOT innocent gun owners.

They weren't innocent gun owners. They were not deceived, I'm pretty sure, into believing that they got them legally. Those guys would have known what was going on. And I don't plan on punishing the innocent, only protecting them. And if they got them illegally than that says that we need more gun control!

ochotseat wrote:Guns don't kill people; people kill people.

So we should make WMD legal for your average Joe because the weapon doesn't have a brain?

ochotseat wrote:Most gang members obtain guns illegally, so your point is moot.

No, so you've just proven my point. If they can obtain them even illegally, we need more control.

ochotseat wrote:So the government should be liable for every individual behaving responsibly and making the right choices for himself?

Where did you get that and what do you mean by it?[/quote][/i]

Prodigal Son wrote: ochotseat:

but, you're wrong again...according to alot of people.
.

Is that why so many Protestant ministers and congregations support it?

Prodigal Son wrote: sure you can. killing is wrong...plain and simple. .

No, because that method's inhumane, while the others are not.

Prodigal Son wrote: i don't respect issues, decisions, people when they are wrong. you seem to worship the majority and government just because it is. it would do you well to learn a little discernment..

And it would do you well to read about ancient Greece, the Constitution, and Bible. This is America, not world according to P.S.

Prodigal Son wrote: blah, blah, blah. those are excuses for sin...

Don't like our government's policy on it? Vote for someone who's against it or move where it's not law.

Prodigal Son wrote: no it doesn't. Texas thinks is has the bible on its side. Texas would like everyone else to think so as well.

Again, read the OT.

Forge wrote: But she was a convicted adulterer, who, in Jewish Law, was under pain of death.

And that custom's an anachronism for us now.

In our country, murder, treason, or serious espionage are punishable by death.

The death penalty is administered by the government, as a rule of law. The government is put in place by God to govern, and includes the right to administer the death penalty, go to war etc. It is a totally different responsibility than that of the individual. The punishment for murder is death (Num 35:16).

ROM 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

1PE 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

I believe it gets back to the same type of discussion we had in the Christian and war thread, about the responsibility of government vs the individual.
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 9&start=45

I don't want to repeat the whole discussion here though.

ochotseat:

this is america, not world according to P.S.

Jesus came to change the world. you don't care about that, though, do you?

Theocratic Imperialist.

August wrote:The punishment for murder is death (Num 35:16).

The OT laws no longer apply August.

The OT laws no longer apply August.

So all Biblical laws are redundant?

August wrote:

The OT laws no longer apply August.

So all Biblical laws are redundant?

Are laws that forbid stealing in Latvia redundant?

Are laws that forbid stealing in Latvia redundant?

Do Latvian laws universally apply?

August wrote:

Are laws that forbid stealing in Latvia redundant?

Do Latvian laws universally apply?

Do the OT laws universally apply?

Mastermind wrote:
The OT laws no longer apply August.

So Christians should ignore the OT completely?

Prodigal Son wrote: Jesus came to change the world. you don't care about that, though, do you?

Jesus said give what is owed to the government. We, as citizens, must respect our laws, or did you not know that?