marijuana/prostitution

[sandy_mcd]

Laws are supposed to legislate morality,

The Ten Commandments, yes.

Federal, State, municipality, etc, no.

"Legal" and "moral" are NOT synonyms.

sandy

[sandy_mcd]

Laws are supposed to legislate morality... It's called democracy.

No, then it's called theocracy. See, e.g., Iran, Saudi Arabia, et al.

sandy

[jerickson314]

jerickson314:

compassion: sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it.

criticize: to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly 2) to find fault with: point out the faults of

Compassionate criticism: To find and point out the faults of others, in order that they may correct their faults to alleviate their distress. Essentially equivalent to "constructive criticism".

Uncompassionate criticism: To find and point out the faults of others in order to appear superior to them. Similar to "destructive criticism".

love: affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests;
the fatherly concern of God for humankind; a person's adoration of God

1Corinthians 13:4-7 love is patient, love is kind. it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. it is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. it always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Right. "Common interests" is key here, the interest of seeing someone live life at its best.

Compassionate criticism is loving. Uncompassionate criticism is unloving.

evil: causing discomfort or repulsion; causing harm; something that brings sorrow, distress, or calamity

No. Evil: that which is against God's will.

A lot of Jesus's teachings can cause "discomfort" and "sorrow" if taken seriously, but they are by no means "evil".

criticism does not alleviate distress. it causes sorrow and distress. it doesn't bring people to God, it pushes them away.

Add an "uncompassionate" to the beginning and you are 100% correct.

But even "compassionate criticism" can cause temporary sorrow and distress. Ever heard of "tough love"? How about, "No pain, no gain"?

Sometimes the greatest good is the one that hurts the most. The cross is quite convincing proof of this.

Also, a person must realize his or her fallen state before he or she will seek God.

criticism is more often than not (at least the type i've heard from many "conservatives") rude and condescending.

Sounds like you are talking about the uncompassionate type. But the prevalence of uncompassionate criticism has no effect on the good of compassionate criticism.

maybe there's another word conservatives should be looking at to guide their version of love.

Conservatives or "conservatives"? Don't commit equivocation (changing the meaning of a word in the middle of an argument).

i don't want to love like that.

Don't confuse "want" and "ought". Sometimes we have to do what we don't like.

Then again, maybe you are arguing against "uncompassionate" criticism. In this case, way to go!

I think I agree with most of what you are saying, I just have a few qualms with the details.

[jerickson314]

1Corinthians 13:4-7 love is patient, love is kind. it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. it is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. it always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Patient: Is it impatient to order something mail-order? Patient means willing to wait on people as they work through their sin. It does NOT mean ignoring sin and especially DOES NOT mean accepting it as something that never needs chaning.

Kind: It is kind to help someone become free of their problems.

Does not envy: No problem with what we are talking about here!

Does not boast: We naturally shouldn't be condemning sin to make ourselves appear superior.

Is not proud: Same as above.

Is not rude: Constructive criticism doesn't have to be rude. Of course, it needs to be done at the appropriate time.

Not self-seeking: Criticism isn't self seeking if the purpose is to help someone else.

Not easily angered: There is a difference between anger and concern.

Keeps no record of wrongs: I think Paul means that it doesn't let wrongs get in the way, and doesn't remember sins that are only past problems.

Does not delight in evil: Of course! The idea of constructive criticism is to fight evil.

Rejoices with the truth: Sometimes the truth hurts. The truth may be that a person should change.

Always protects: Protects from the damaging effects of sin, of course.

Always trusts: Trusting the other person to work with you for good.

Always hopes: Hopes for the better.

Always perseverses: Loving a person in face of their struggles.

Also note that constructive criticism is best two-way, when two people help each other see their sins. This fights prideful attitudes. Accountability partners are a model of this.

[Prodigal Son]

thank you for that. i admire the way you "argue"--you make good points and they're always so clear. and yes, i was arguing against uncompassionate criticism.

you know, i don't condone sin. i am only troubled when people fail to see the person behind it...when people are condemned and not given a chance to crawl out of their messes.

[ochotseat]

and who deals out judgement...i'd like to know.
.

Us. God gave us justice for a reason.

there's so much more that states otherwise.
.

You changed your mind on the issues. That's an improvement.

besides, nothing with bush's backing should be taken seriously.

You don't like conservatives? What a surprise.

The Ten Commandments, yes.

Federal, State, municipality, etc, no.

"Legal" and "moral" are NOT synonyms.

Sounds like you don't know about our laws much. Why do we have fines for obscenity and public nudity? Those laws are based on morality. All our laws are based on some moral fabric.

[jerickson314]

Sounds like you don't know about our laws much. Why do we have fines for obscenity and public nudity? Those laws are based on morality. All our laws are based on some moral fabric.

Ochotseat, the stated proposition was that "moral" and "legal" were not synonyms. Not that "illegal" and "immoral" weren't.

Abortion is legal in a lot of places. So is gay sex. So is pornography. So is much lying not done under oath.

legal != moral.

[Prodigal Son]

you changed your mind on the issues. that's an improvement.

on one issue. i like to improve. humility is the key

[ochotseat]

Ochotseat, the stated proposition was that "moral" and "legal" were not synonyms. Not that "illegal" and "immoral" weren't.
Abortion is legal in a lot of places. So is gay sex. So is pornography. So is much lying not done under oath.
legal != moral.

Lying to the government even when not under oath's illegal.
I was saying that our laws are based on some type of morality. Many people who are pro-life support abortions if they will save the mother's life or if the baby was conceived by rape or incest. Some states used to have statutes against anal sex, but those were banned by the Supreme Court. One can argue that that was a positive change since two consenting adults have the right to have that type of sex and that the ruling doesn't necessarily approve sodomy. Then again, another can argue that a state has the right to make such laws if they'll benefit public health, since anal sex is the most dangerous type of sexual intercourse. The legality of pornography involves similar arguments.

on one issue. i like to improve. humility is the key

With more improvement, you'll change your mind on the other too.

[kateliz]

Prodigal Son wrote: and who deals out judgement...i'd like to know.
.

Us. God gave us justice for a reason.

What he means here, and what you've failed to get despite frequent mention of it, is that you yourself are handing out judgement without the compassion a Christian should have. Uncompassionate criticism as jerickson has defined.

Please don't get me wrong, and I hope I've had this same attitude towards you during all of the threads we've recently discussed together, but I do care for you and your walk as a Christian, as I do Prodigal and all others, (hopefully,) here. I am very concerned about the uncompassionate criticism you've shown. It is not healthy in your walk as a Christian, your relationship with God, and your witness of Him to others. It's just not a good thing... and it harms others including Christians. You know of what I speak, and I have seen a change in your most recent posts, but you still lack the love. Again, I hope I haven't been hypocritical and not done right by you in this regard myself, (only God can rightly judge hearts, even your own,) but I care for your walk as a Christian and am concerned about this. Please take my concern seriously to heart and at least give it the time of day.

kateliz:

i have modified my view on prostitution. i no longer favor its legalization. prostitution hurts everyone involved both physically and spiritually. legalizing it would be like saying to those in its grasp: "you are worthless. its okay to keep hurting yourself, we don't care. you can never be anything else. all you're good for is to bring other people pleasure and you can only do that in a negative way."

that's not loving people so it's wrong.

I knew you'd see the light sooner or later, and I'm very glad, (it warms my heart ,) that it was so soon! From what I've read from you recently you're really making leaps and bounds, and it's an honor to get to witness such a thing. God is Good, and who dare doubts it???

[ochotseat]

What he means here, and what you've failed to get despite frequent mention of it, is that you yourself are handing out judgement without the compassion a Christian should have. Uncompassionate criticism as jerickson has defined.

Please don't get me wrong, and I hope I've had this same attitude towards you during all of the threads we've recently discussed together, but I do care for you and your walk as a Christian, as I do Prodigal and all others, (hopefully,) here. I am very concerned about the uncompassionate criticism you've shown. It is not healthy in your walk as a Christian, your relationship with God, and your witness of Him to others. It's just not a good thing... and it harms others including Christians. You know of what I speak, and I have seen a change in your most recent posts, but you still lack the love. Again, I hope I haven't been hypocritical and not done right by you in this regard myself, (only God can rightly judge hearts, even your own,) but I care for your walk as a Christian and am concerned about this. Please take my concern seriously to heart and at least give it the time of day.

Ever heard of compassionate criticism?
Anyway, the posts that were criticizing his folly are yesterday's news.

[kateliz]

I did not see the compassion at all. Instead I saw uncompassionate criticism, which did include elements of hate and self-righteous judgement.

Looking back on the newest posts now I see that I incorrectly interpreted your saying that we deal out judgement. I got from Prodigal Son's "and who deals out judgement...i'd like to know" that he was talking about your desire to judge his former sins. So I then, from that, interpreted your, "Us. God gave us justice for a reason" as saying that you could deal out judgement against him for his former sins, now forgiven. I think I was mistaken, looking at it now, about at least your comment. You were merely referring to God giving us governments for a reason. I'm sorry about that.

[ochotseat]

I did not see the compassion at all. Instead I saw uncompassionate criticism, which did include elements of hate and self-righteous judgement.
.

You don't seem to understand that criticism is fine if you're trying to help the other person see the light. We do it all the time with homosexuals and criminals.

[kateliz]

Hey, quite changing the subject! We're talking about different kinds of criticism, remember? Yes, you were criticizing him. I'm sure we'd all agree to that. However, the amount of compassion and love that you had while saying what you said was, by the looks of it, close to nonexistant. You know exactly what I'm talking about, so don't deny it, and if you've had a slight change of heart about how you should've spoken with Prodigal, humbly admit as much and put at least one of us more at ease! I feel tension with you on my part because of that whole thing, and I'd like it to go away completely! How can I poke fun at you if I'm still a little peeved, oh! i shot my seat? Got Frankenstein stitches that hurt to sit on? I'd like to hear how you managed to do that!

[ochotseat]

Hey, quite changing the subject! We're talking about different kinds of criticism, remember? Yes, you were criticizing him.

Glad to see you noticed it. Sounds like you didn't even care that he said he had no concern about our laws or country. Just because you said your father may had been in the same situation does not mean all drifters are alike. I've noticed that you haven't revisited the death penalty thread either, because your anti-death penalty statements were wrong.