Evidence for God from Science

KBCid wrote:
What exactly are the sins that can cause us to lose salvation?

None. If one has eternal life, then loses it, it was never eternal to begin with. Unless you want to call it temporary eternal life.

KBCid wrote:
What could separate a believer from God and Christ if the believer actually believes in them and that they are saved?

Nothing.
Romans 8:38-39 :38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

cheezerrox wrote:

jlay wrote:Gentiles are not "obligated" to keep them. There isn't some special arrangement between God and gentiles regarding keeping a list of rules. Love is the issue today. Love God and love your neighbor. It is not an obligation of does and don'ts.

Gentiles who have faith in the G-d of Israel and His Messiah do have an obligation to obey Him, though, just as Jews who have faith are obligated. And are you saying that love wasn't the issue in the past? Because, as I'm sure you know, both of those commandments (to love G-d and to love your neighbor) are from the Law.

If you want to live under that, then so be it. But I can promise that you are no more in grace by keeping a day than those who don't. If you disagree, then please define how you are using the word 'obligated.' In fact, I would even contend based on the context of what you just said, that you are in essence refusing such grace for yourself, and wrongly passing judgment on others.

Gentiles should have faith in God, and should follow the teachings of the one He hand picked to teach them. Paul. Who said, do not let others judge you about a Sabbath. Yet, you judge yourself as better than me, or more than me because of your sabbath keeping.
The commands to love your neighbor and love God are reflected in the law. You won't hear me say otherwise.
Should we obey God? yes. And the best way is to do this is to first understand what economy we are operating in today. I would say that you do not.

KBCid wrote:Apparently it is possible to sin after being saved which means that there are commandments of God that can be broken even if you believe in Christ. It is this point that I would like to get clarification on. What exactly are the sins that can cause us to lose salvation?

None. The immediate context of the verses in Heb. and Matt. are written to who? Jews.
Yes, there are people who believe they are right with God who are not.

If we pluck verses out of context, and ignore audience, then you will end up with contradictions. Such as a conflict with Eph. 2:8,9. Contradictions happen when we fail to rightly divide the word of truth, and take how God was dealing with man at one time, and apply to another.

Gentiles are not required to keep the book of the law which was specifically agreed to in a blood oath by the isrealites. The decalogue however was not a book and thus not part of the blood oath. The decalogue came from the very finger of God and written in stone to show the permanancy of how God defines what sin is. If we were to "do" the things listed in the decalogue is it not still a sin? Can I murder while still believing in Christ and still be sinless? Can I make molten images of what I think God looks like and worship it even though I believe in Christ? Can I dishonor my father and mother shile still believing in Christ and be sinless?
These are things which need to be defined. Did Christs sacrifice eliminate how God defined sin?

I'd ask you the same question. Did what happened on Sinai change how God defined sin? I'd like to see the scriptural basis by which you make these conclusions. As Paul said, people can know right from wrong without a list of rules. In fact, it is said that when someone knows the good they ought to do and fails to do it, to him it is sin. Yes the 10 came from the finger of God. But was it wrong to murder before this? Yes, as you've already rightly shown. And what about the Sabbath?

RickD wrote: I really don't understand this.
My POV all along has been that first, Jesus Christ IS our Sabbath rest. And second, the bible says that Christians shouldn't judge one another about whether we obey the 7th day sabbath law.

Let's look at the following verses from Colossians 2:16-17: 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Sorry to disagree with you on this, but I believe the passage is strictly saying that no one is to judge you in your OBEDIENCE to the laws of Torah which would include the festivals the new moon or the Sabbath day, which is a mere shadow of what will come. When? When Christ rules in the millennium, and when that happens we will all be practicing the festivals, the new moon and Sabbath days all over again. Ezekiel 45:16-17, Ezekiel 46:3

RickD wrote:Christians are not to judge each other in regards to what we eat, or drink. We are not to judge each other in regards to whether or not we follow the Sabbath day law. That means we are free in Christ to choose to follow the law regarding the seventh(Sabbath) day, or choose not to follow the law regarding the Sabbath day. Now for those who say "Sabbath" in this verse isn't referring to the 4th commandment, let's look at verse 16 again with the Strong's concordance numbers, so we can see exactly what the word "Sabbath" means in this verse.

I never said I was judging anyone here... In fact I said WE, which means me too... I'm guilty of breaking the sabbath all the days of my life.

RickD wrote:This verse is saying that the laws pertaining to the restrictions on eating and drinking, and obeying the Sabbath law regarding the observance of the seventh day, are "mere shadows" of what is to come. The substance which is in Christ.

Just like Old Testament animal sacrifice was a shadow of Christ's ultimate, and final sacrifice, the seventh day Sabbath rest was a mere shadow of the ultimate and final rest we believers have in Christ. The shadow was a rest for the Israelites from their six days of work. The real Sabbath(Jesus Christ), is a rest for believers from our work to try to please God.

Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, is not the real sabbath. It never was, and it is not now. It is a picture or a reminder of the real sabbath. The true sabbath is a rest in Christ. The Jewish sabbath is a shadow, a picture of that rest. All the Old Testament shadows pointed to Christ. They were predictions, foreviews, of the coming of the One who would fulfill all these remarkable things with His death and resurrection. Every lamb that was brought as an offering was a shadow of the work of Christ. Every burnt offering, every bit of incense that was offered, was a picture of the fragrance of Jesus Christ. The tabernacle was a shadow of him. The high priest, in his garments and his office, was a shadow of Christ as our High Priest.

Yes, and when He comes back we will be practicing it again during the millennial reign.. Ezekiel 45:16-17, Ezekiel 46:3 It is ALL a shadow of Christ so we might as well get started now.. Plus I would say it magnifies Christ which is another reason to practice it.

RickD wrote:So, just like when a believer loves God and his neighbor, he is obeying the 10 commandments, also, when a believer is resting in Christ, the real Sabbath, he is obeying the 4th commandment.
JESUS CHRIST IS OUR SABBATH REST!!!
For a believer to dismiss this, and put the burden on other believers that we MUST obey the seventh day Sabbath law or we are sinning, is to dismiss the fact that Jesus Christ fulfilled the law. And He always was, and still is the real Sabbath.

If that is the way you feel about it, then there is really nothing more I can do to convince you otherwise.. If you think it doesn't matter then that is your choice...

RickD wrote:See if this illustration makes sense. A man is engaged to marry his fiance. They are in different countries, and will soon meet and be married. For now, the man has a picture of his fiance in a frame that he keeps next to his bed. He looks at the picture, and sees how beautiful his fiance is. Now, when the man and his fiance are reunited, he no longer needs to look at the picture of her, because he will have the real "her". While the picture is beautiful, and shows the man what his fiance looks like, it was just a picture he had, until he has the real thing. The seventh day Sabbath is a picture of the real Sabbath, which is Jesus Christ.

Even if I had her with me, I would still want to dedicate one day to her to show her how much I loved her... Why? To show her that she was more precious than my work...

Gman, could you tell me what this verse means to you, please.

John 19:30: 30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Specifically, what did Jesus mean when he said, "It is finished!"?

RickD wrote:Gman, could you tell me what this verse means to you, please.

John 19:30: 30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Specifically, what did Jesus mean when he said, "It is finished!"?

That His redemptive work was finished.. He has been made sin for us and suffered the penalty. But that doesn't mean that we stop doing His law either much like someone paying your speeding ticket, but then that doesn't give you the right to keep speeding around street corners.. Does it?

We practice Torah, not for salvation.... We practice Torah to see how much we need His mercy. Why? Because then we see that we really don't apply it to our lives.. We are law breakers.. Hence we truly need Him.

KBCid wrote:Apparently it is possible to sin after being saved which means that there are commandments of God that can be broken even if you believe in Christ. It is this point that I would like to get clarification on. What exactly are the sins that can cause us to lose salvation?

jlay wrote:None. The immediate context of the verses in Heb. and Matt. are written to who? Jews. Yes, there are people who believe they are right with God who are not.

Ahhh now the rationale is becoming clear. You believe once you believe your saved as a gentile that you cannot possibly sin again.

jlay wrote:If we pluck verses out of context, and ignore audience, then you will end up with contradictions. Such as a conflict with Eph. 2:8,9. Contradictions happen when we fail to rightly divide the word of truth, and take how God was dealing with man at one time, and apply to another.

Who is the audience here?
Rev. 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

Note that it specifically states "that keep the commandments of God as well as keeping the faith of Christ. If as you portray it that only faith is needed then this verse is in error since it points to those who are doing both at the same time. Thus it cannot be for those before Christ who would not have known his teaching.

KBCid wrote:Gentiles are not required to keep the book of the law which was specifically agreed to in a blood oath by the isrealites. The decalogue however was not a book and thus not part of the blood oath. The decalogue came from the very finger of God and written in stone to show the permanancy of how God defines what sin is. If we were to "do" the things listed in the decalogue is it not still a sin? Can I murder while still believing in Christ and still be sinless? Can I make molten images of what I think God looks like and worship it even though I believe in Christ? Can I dishonor my father and mother shile still believing in Christ and be sinless?
These are things which need to be defined. Did Christs sacrifice eliminate how God defined sin?

jlay wrote:I'd ask you the same question. Did what happened on Sinai change how God defined sin? I'd like to see the scriptural basis by which you make these conclusions. As Paul said, people can know right from wrong without a list of rules. In fact, it is said that when someone knows the good they ought to do and fails to do it, to him it is sin. Yes the 10 came from the finger of God. But was it wrong to murder before this? Yes, as you've already rightly shown. And what about the Sabbath?

God doesn't change. What has always been a sin in his eyes will always remain a sin in his eyes.
You seem to agree that murder was always a sin so this is not something that was invoked in sinai. The decologue was Gods way of help people avoid the hit or miss method of sinning. He clarified for everyone what he considered to be a sin so it was not left to mans imagination to define it.
Indeed what about the seventh day sabbath? Note that the decalogue doesn't point to all the sabbath days written in the book of the law. That is because most of the sabbath days defined there would be fullfilled. They were 'added' specifically for the Jews and specifically sealed in blood. These are the sabbath days being discussed in the new testament since their relevance was entirely set to the israelites. None of the sabbaths added in the book of the law were ever blessed and sanctified by God. Only one day is ever referenced as God's sabbath. This is the day he observes long before Jews arrived and his Son observes it, and his sons apostles observed it and ultimately as God himself says;

Gen. 2:3"God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it."
Num. 23:20 "He hath blessed and I cannot reverse it."
1 Chron. 17:27 "For Thou blessest, O Lord, and it shall be blessed for ever."

The seventh day will always be Exo 31:15 ...holy to the LORD... because he made it so from the beginning and he doesn't change so it is a safe bet that the seventh day is still holy to God.

RickD wrote:Gman, could you tell me what this verse means to you, please. John 19:30: 30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. Specifically, what did Jesus mean when he said, "It is finished!"?

Gman wrote: That His redemptive work was finished.. He has been made sin for us and suffered the penalty. But that doesn't mean that we stop doing His law either much like someone paying your speeding ticket, but then that doesn't give you the right to keep speeding around street corners.. Does it?

I understood this as Christ saying that the final sacrifice has been made... the one that God will accept as able to cover sins. Christ was envisioned as a lamb for a reason. It was a parallel to the actions performed in the book of the law which were a temporary bandaide until he made the proper sacrifice for sin.
The reality for us now is that instead of thinking we might gain salvation by performing the letter of the old sacrificial law we now have a single sacrificial offering to God for our sins (the disobeyance of Gods commandments which define what sin is). However, the fact that Christ taught a new method for the relief from the wages of sin does not mean that sin itself cannot occur. Christs entire mission was to eliminate an old method for the forgiveness of sin which was temporary and institute a new method that would be everlasting and actually acceptable to the Father.
The fact that Christ conveyed this good news about the new method of forgiveness should not overshadow that he also magnified his fathers laws / commandments and gave them more than just a physical letter of requirement, He gave them a spiritual meaning beyond the letter. When something is magnified then it is not done away with rather we are now held to a more expansive meaning of the fathers laws. Where the father said Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. This could be followed in the letter but there was no law against your imagination. Christ rectified this little inconsistency in this example of magnification;
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So for us now it is not just that we are command not to physically commit adultery, we are also held accountable if we simply look on a woman to lust her. This is far and above the old book of the law. So if you look on a woman with lust then you are now breaking Gods original commandment and sinning in a manner that has been redefined (magnified) beyond what the Jews were held to. If we believe In Christ then we must also accept that we are being held to a higher form of the fathers original commands.

It's not that we're being called to higher standard per se. In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit resided in the Holy of Holies and none could enter into his presence without the blood of sacrifice to prepare the priest to enter.

Christ's finished work on the Cross did away with the temporary sacrificial system and the temple and made men themselves the temple where the Holy Spirit resides. The law existed primarily to reveal to us our need for Christ. Now that Christ's work is finished and the Holy Spirit resides within us, we no longer abide by behavioral modification to please or appease God, we are renewed and changed in our heart by that Holy Spirit so that rather than having to escalate the law in it's role, because we love Christ and desire to please Him we do right out of that changed heart and desire. We're not fully arrived or free of the influence of the "old man" or the "flesh" in one sense although positionally in Christ we are. There's a process of sanctification, change and renewal that is at work within us and the more we realize it, align ourselves with it a cooperate with it, them more we become like Christ and produce the fruit that is consistent with who we are.

Canuckster1127 wrote:It's not that we're being called to higher standard per se. In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit resided in the Holy of Holies and none could enter into his presence without the blood of sacrifice to prepare the priest to enter. Christ's finished work on the Cross did away with the temporary sacrificial system and the temple and made men themselves the temple where the Holy Spirit resides.

I disagree with us not being called or 'required' to hold a higher standard. If we are not intended to go beyond the letter of the law then of what purpose was Christ to magnify te law? Why tell us that it is now a lustfull act to simply imagine it in our minds if he did not expect us to honor that magnification. Al the Jews were expected to perform under the previous agreement was simply not to perform the act. They could stand there all day long and lust all they want to in their minds and it was not considered a sin because they didn't perform the physical act. Christ revealed to us that his father commandment meant more than simply performing a physical act. He showed us that the simple act of imagining do the physical act was the equivalent of actually having performed the physical act. So how do you rationalise that we are not held to the new understanding that he took the time to make sure we understood? Unless there is some scripture that counters this teaching then I expect that Christ and God expect us to not lust in our minds and this would be a higher standard than the Jews were held accountable for.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Now that Christ's work is finished and the Holy Spirit resides within us, we no longer abide by behavioral modification to please or appease God, we are renewed and changed in our heart by that Holy Spirit so that rather than having to escalate the law in it's role, because we love Christ and desire to please Him we do right out of that changed heart and desire.

I would disagree here based on the following scriptures where we are told that we are expected to perform a certain way. If there was no need to observe what we did then there would be no reason for such teaching to have occured;

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Notice is doesn't simply say believe... it specifically states 'do'

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

It is clear here that there must be a positive control applied by the believer to perform a certain way

1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Again in even more clarity we are admonished to perform a certain way lest we fall. Apparently we can fall if we don't take care to keep our mind and body from sinning

Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

The old man is the one who thought nothing of sinning... we are again admonished to actively stop from sinning the way our old man did. The only way to become holy is to not sin and we are supposed work to oppose sinning...

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

He is clearly speaking to people who have been raised to the level of saints here and he makes sure they understand that they keep on performing in a proper manner otherwise you will lose your salvation.

1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1Co 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

Apparently 'how we ought to walk' is an important aspect of our faith in Christ. If the holy spirit would eliminate the need to watch how we do things then I would assume that the above verses would not be worded the way they are. It is quite clear that we will be tested and if we don't know clearly what a sin is and avoid it then we will fail the test. God has called us to think holy and act holy, we are called to perform in an acceptable manner and we have been given examples to follow for how that manner is.

Canuckster1127 wrote:We're not fully arrived or free of the influence of the "old man" or the "flesh" in one sense although positionally in Christ we are. There's a process of sanctification, change and renewal that is at work within us and the more we realize it, align ourselves with it a cooperate with it, them more we become like Christ and produce the fruit that is consistent with who we are.

I agree there is a process of sanctification and one does not simply attain it upon indwelling of the holy spirit. The holy spirit is a helper and a comforter to guide us on our journey. It does not take away our free choice and eliminate our ability to sin otherwise we could not be tested.

KBCid wrote:Ahhh now the rationale is becoming clear. You believe once you believe your saved as a gentile that you cannot possibly sin again.

What? How did you conclude that.

Who is the audience here?
Rev. 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

Note that it specifically states "that keep the commandments of God as well as keeping the faith of Christ. If as you portray it that only faith is needed then this verse is in error since it points to those who are doing both at the same time. Thus it cannot be for those before Christ who would not have known his teaching.

If you think Revelation is a book for Gentile instruction and application today then so be it. A Pauline dispensationalists would not agree.

God doesn't change. What has always been a sin in his eyes will always remain a sin in his eyes.

That is not an answer. The fact that God is immutable (and He is) doesn't mean that God deals with all people in all times the same way. The scripture couldn't more clearly reveal that to be the case. What was sin to A & E? One thing, don't eat...... Once they violated that one command and their "eyes were opened" a whole new reality of sin came to be.

You seem to agree that murder was always a sin so this is not something that was invoked in sinai. The decologue was Gods way of help people avoid the hit or miss method of sinning. He clarified for everyone what he considered to be a sin so it was not left to mans imagination to define it.

The deca implemented the covenant promised to Abraham.
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. (Deut. 5:1-3)
The 10 immediately follow. Not sure how you think this was to "clarify to everyone." that certainly isn't in the text.

KBCid wrote:Ahhh now the rationale is becoming clear. You believe once you believe your saved as a gentile that you cannot possibly sin again.

jlay wrote:What? How did you conclude that.

That is my perception of what you are conveying. If I am wrong then you can correct me and I will gain a better understanding

KBCid wrote:Who is the audience here?
Rev. 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
Note that it specifically states "that keep the commandments of God as well as keeping the faith of Christ. If as you portray it that only faith is needed then this verse is in error since it points to those who are doing both at the same time. Thus it cannot be for those before Christ who would not have known his teaching.

jlay wrote:If you think Revelation is a book for Gentile instruction and application today then so be it. A Pauline dispensationalists would not agree.

Is it not a book intended for the people of God after Christs time on earth? I don't see revelation being a Jewish only book. As for instruction it is not giving instruction in the verse I pointed out. It is however, making a plain statement;
Rev. 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

This one verse points to people who where existing after Christs time on earth. From my understanding The kingdom of God was preached to both Jew and Gentile. Only these people coud have the faith of Jesus. So this verse points directly at those who could have the faith of Christ and it specifically points out that keeping the commandments of God is an integral part of that faith. So there is no instruction in this verse. From what I see it is a statement of fact from the POV of the writer and it doesn't appear that there is a difference between jew and gentile there.
My understanding is that you do your best to obey the decalogue that Christ magnified and have the faith that Christ will be the acceptable sacrifice to the father for when we do sin by breaking the fathers commandments.

KBCid wrote:God doesn't change. What has always been a sin in his eyes will always remain a sin in his eyes.

jlay wrote:That is not an answer. The fact that God is immutable (and He is) doesn't mean that God deals with all people in all times the same way. The scripture couldn't more clearly reveal that to be the case. What was sin to A & E? One thing, don't eat...... Once they violated that one command and their "eyes were opened" a whole new reality of sin came to be.

You cannot correlate how God handles situations with what he considers a sin. When I point out that God doesn't change this applies to his POV. If he thinks that muder was bad before the decalogue and he still thought the same when he wrote the decalogue then it is a sound bet that his view on murder will never change. God cannot lie and he said it is a sin to murder. I cannot be construed at a later time that his position on this could change. because if such is the case then his assertion about murder would become a lie at some later time. Truth is a perpetual thing. It cannot change.

KBCid wrote:You seem to agree that murder was always a sin so this is not something that was invoked in sinai. The decologue was Gods way of help people avoid the hit or miss method of sinning. He clarified for everyone what he considered to be a sin so it was not left to mans imagination to define it.

jlay wrote:The deca implemented the covenant promised to Abraham.
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. (Deut. 5:1-3) The 10 immediately follow. Not sure how you think this was to "clarify to everyone." that certainly isn't in the text.

A bit of analysis is required here since you clipped the Deuteronomy reference a bit short. You should also note that the initial decalogue covenant was broken by the sinning of the israelites before moses had even delivered them. Most people never notice but the israelites had broken the commandment about graven images before they even new Gods position on it since that position was written on the two tablets that Moses was on his way to deliver when they got the novel idea of forming the golden calf. So the reality was that the two tablets were to be the the covenant that was to be agreed on in blood and that covenant was broken when Moses broke the tablets. He knew that the people could not make an agreement with God on just the tablets alone.

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

What actually followed verses 1-3 was verses 4-5

Deu 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
Deu 5:5 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying...

This is what was written just prior to the reference to the decalogue. Then after the decalogue we read;

Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
Deu 5:23 And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;
Deu 5:24 And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.

You see there was no agreement that occured. This is God commanding and people being thankfull that they still existed.

Deu 5:25-26 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die. For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?

This next verse is the one that concerns an agreement to be made at a future time. Read it carefully;

Deu 5:27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.

Note that no agreement has been made yet.

Deu 5:28 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Yup this is definitely a one way conversation between God and Moses. Now after 5:29 we finally arrive at the point where an covenant is talked about being made;

Deu 5:30 Go say to them, Get you into your tents again.
Deu 5:31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.
Deu 5:32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.
Deu 5:33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.

Notice that God tells Moses that he alone will convey to the israelites "all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them" so essentially God has not yet defined the specifics of what will eventually be agreed upon. No covenant yet.
Now we arrive at Deuteronomy 6. What is the very first think we read here;

Deu 6:1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
Deu 6:2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
Deu 6:3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Notice it is specifically pointed out that the words currently being spoken are being commanded on that specific day. God is defining what the new covenant will be comprised of. Note also in this area we hear again the words of Christ when he talks about the greatest commandments "And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." This law was not done away with. We are still required to obey this so obviously not everything contained in the old covenant was fullfillable. Remember Christ was to fullfill that which was able to be fullfilled.

Eventually the entire agreement is spelled out and there is a blod oath agreement made and it it not to simply obey 10 simple commandments. It is the book of the law which Moses wrote which showed how one should apply the decalogues meaning and how to deal with failure to obey. This is the book of the law that was placed in the side of the ark which defined for the israelites how they were to obey the decalogue. This book of the law contained all the references pointing to Christ and it contained all the temporary actions that were agreed to be done if they sinned. Once Christ arrived his sacrifice negated all the old customs defined in the book of the law for dealing with sin. His sacrifice did not negate what a sin was. Christs sacrifice was a better / only method for dealing with sins that are commited. Sins have been defined by the Father and remain in effect forever, Christ is the one and only avenue available for forgiveness when we violate Gods commandments and sin. If Christs sacrifice eliminates the performing of a sin then why is his blood needed to cover sins?

This is what concerns me about discussion on the Sabbath and then into the Law.

If by the Law you mean what Jesus clearly said in Matthew 22:36-40:

"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" Jesus said to him, 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." NKJV

WE have No problem…

With such love – we can love God and respect those who love the Resurrection of Christ and choose the First day of the week to demonstrate their Love to God and that is okay. Likewise, we can love God and respect those who keep the seventh Day Sabbath of the week to demonstrate one’s Love to God and that is okay as well too.

Without any respect for each other – then there is no love of our neighbor is it?

"On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets," said Jesus yet hear people in videos, TV, from the pulpit make references to returning to specific aspects of the Law because if you do not then you are not Holy, don’t love, not part of the favored in crowd, God will not like you, or even some say one is dam-ed hell bound, why, because a person does not do the specific aspects of the Law harped on – How can that be the Love that Jesus mentions in Mathew 22:36-40?

The Apostle Paul’s statement below is one governed by Love:

Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
Col 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—
Col 2:21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,"
Col 2:22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. NKJV

Are we all here guided by the same sentiments?

Or not?
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That is my perception of what you are conveying. If I am wrong then you can correct me and I will gain a better understanding

K,
Your perception is wrong, and I can't even begin to see how you arrived at such a conclusion. So, not sure how I can correct when you haven't explained how you arrived at that conclusion.

Is it not a book intended for the people of God after Christs time on earth? I don't see revelation being a Jewish only book.

All scripture is useful.. (2 Tim. 3:16) That isn't the question. The question is for whom and when is it applicable.

From my understanding The kingdom of God was preached to both Jew and Gentile.

Sure, the KOG is pretty broad term in what it encompasses. But, JTB and Jesus preached the Kingdom in a way during their earthly ministries that was exclusively Jewish.

My understanding is that you do your best to obey the decalogue that Christ magnified and have the faith that Christ will be the acceptable sacrifice to the father for when we do sin by breaking the fathers commandments.

If our best meant a darn thing, Jesus would need not died.

I suggest you really go back and read the text. I agree a bit of analysis is needed. What was written on the stones was done after God had made covenant with Israel. God and Moses had already recited the Law to them. Exodus 20.
"When Moses went and told the people all the Lord’s words and laws, they responded with one voice, “Everything the Lord has said we will do.” Moses then wrote down everything the Lord had said" (Exodus 24:3-4)
Then, and I say THEN Moses went up the mountain. Exodus 24:13 And that is when he received the tablets which were to be placed in the ark.
Exodus 31:18
So, to say that

A bit of analysis is required here since you clipped the Deuteronomy reference a bit short. You should also note that the initial decalogue covenant was broken by the sinning of the israelites before moses had even delivered them. Most people never notice but the israelites had broken the commandment about graven images before they even new Gods position on it since that position was written on the two tablets that Moses was on his way to deliver when they got the novel idea of forming the golden calf. So the reality was that the two tablets were to be the the covenant that was to be agreed on in blood and that covenant was broken when Moses broke the tablets. He knew that the people could not make an agreement with God on just the tablets alone.

is completely wrong. Exodus reveals the time. And the deca is revelaed by God's voice to Israel BEFORE the stones were given. And Israel agreed to the covenant before the stones were given. This negates the rest of your post.
Deut. 5 recounts the giving of the law. And Deut. 4:44,45 says, "This is the law Moses set before the Israelites. These are the stipulations, decrees and laws Moses gave them when they came out of Egypt." And in Deut. 5:4, "The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain."

He is clearly speaking to people who have been raised to the level of saints here and he makes sure they understand that they keep on performing in a proper manner otherwise you will lose your salvation.

Paul is making no such case in Ephesians.

B. W. wrote:This is what concerns me about discussion on the Sabbath and then into the Law.
If by the Law you mean what Jesus clearly said in Matthew 22:36-40:
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" Jesus said to him, 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." NKJV WE have No problem…

Those certainly are the greatest of the laws. Christ also makes sure to point out that every other law is based on them. Thus there are more than two laws.

B. W. wrote:With such love – we can love God and respect those who love the Resurrection of Christ and choose the First day of the week to demonstrate their Love to God and that is okay. Likewise, we can love God and respect those who keep the seventh Day Sabbath of the week to demonstrate one’s Love to God and that is okay as well too.

God loved the seventh day... to the point where he made the very day blessed and consecrated as holy long before the was A jew. Isn't this of importance to us? If God has made a choice who are we to override him? Christ was also chosen long before there was a jew in existence to become the savior of all mankind and we respect this choice of God right?

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luke 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Luke 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Christ is fairly clear about the necessity of obeying the decalogue which is the Royal law of his father. This royal law is different than the book of the law given by Moses to the israelites. Some people argue that all of the commandments were strictly a jewish only requirement to which I must
ask. How many of the royal commandments contained in the decalogue do you feel we don't need to obey? Is it just the fourth? or is none of it relevant anymore?
I would also point out again the the seventh day was made holy by God prior to the existence of Jews and if you read the forth commandment carefully you will note some specifics that God himself defined about that day;

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Remember to keep it holy... Because it was already holy before he gave them the command.

Exo 20:9-11 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

God specifically states "But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God". It is not just a day of rest for Gods people. It is also his chosen sabbath that has never been changed or removed. Christ has never said that the seventh day is no longer the only day blessed by God nor has there been any writing that has made all days the equivalent of the seventh.

B. W. wrote:"On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets," said Jesus yet hear people in videos, TV, from the pulpit make references to returning to specific aspects of the Law because if you do not then you are not Holy, don’t love, not part of the favored in crowd, God will not like you, or even some say one is dam-ed hell bound, why, because a person does not do the specific aspects of the Law harped on – How can that be the Love that Jesus mentions in Mathew 22:36-40?

Let us observe what Christ has to say;
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Christ is pointing out the greatest and second greatest commandments not all of the commandments since they all can't be the greatest. You should also note that he specifically points out that all the other commandments which also already exist are based on those two foundational commandments. I should also be mentioned that if everything should be considered in the context it was written then these two commandments don't apply to gentiles either since it was delivered to some jews in regard to a question they had.

B. W. wrote:The Apostle Paul’s statement below is one governed by Love:
Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
Col 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—
Col 2:21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,"
Col 2:22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. NKJV

Indeed there are many things contained in Moses book of the law which defined festival days and new moons and special sabbaths whose existence and observance was required until Christ came. These written ordinances by Moses were temporary until the proper sacrifice could be made by Christ who came specifically to fullfill them. So what part of the decalogue could be fullfilled by Christ? Is it now ok to kill or make idols or covet or lie etc. etc.? Define which ones we are now free to stop observing.
If we love God with all our heart and soul then why wouldn't we also honor the one specific day that he defines as his own and which he made holy?
God apparently thought that observing the same things as our maker were important enough to him to make it a commandment. do you think he has now changed his mind about it? It should also be asked what it is about that one day that makes it so important to God that he would bless and sanctify it long before there was ever a jew? As far as I know sunday has throughout history been the day of worship by pagans for their imaginary gods and how do you think God looks at having his sanctified day occuring on sunday by the command of man. Yes I did say the command of man;

James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, 88th ed., pp. 89.
"But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."

Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed., p. 174.
"Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
"Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."

Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About (1927),p. 136.
"Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday .... Now the Church ... instituted, by God's authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday."

Constantines change of day;
On the venerable Day of the sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits: because it often happens that another Day is not so suitable for grain sowing or for vine planting: lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.
Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church Volume 3 (Edinburgh: 1884): 380, note.

Catholic Church Council of Laodicea change of day;
Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday (Sabbath), but shall work on that Day: but the Lord’s Day, they shall especially honour; and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ.
Rev. Charles Joseph Hefele, Henry N. Oxenham (trans.), A History of the Church Councils from 326 to 429 Volume 2 (Edinburgh: T. and T. Clark, 1896): 316.

So if we observe others days during the week it should be understood that we were not the first and in fact the catholic church in conjunction with Constantine made laws according to mans understanding to change the sabbath of the Lord.

B. W. wrote:Are we all here guided by the same sentiments? Or not?

Most everyone here is guided by a love for God and Christ. Some simply have differences of opinion on some ways that we show that love. For my part I am exploring how others derive their understanding from a biblical perspective so I work the devils advocate side to see how replies on the subject are derived. At no time is anyone to consider what I post as a perspective of this site or of its owners. We all have questions and each of us has various ways of exploring. This is simply my method of making a determination.

There is one God and one Christ by which our sins are forgiven.