Re: Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:31 pm
To be humane. But not all dogs go to heaven... Without God you have no morality- oh well
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
This is true. However, He gives one enough reason and knowledge that makes it reasonable to seek more than He has ALREADY provided, if one feels they need and DESIRE more. But to ignore what one ALREADY has been shown (even just that He must exist), to ignore all reasonable evidence, to AVOID seeking to know MORE, to be determined to not believe except upon YOUR terms, God will not do this. He knows - and has ALWAYS known - what level of evidence and knowledge a person requires to know and seek Him out. The Apostle Paul required a radical, powerful attention getter. After being blinded on that road to Damascus, he could have rationalized that he had hallucinated, that some unknown illness had hit him, that no way could he have been wrong about that Christian "cult." And he spent some time afterward contemplating what had happened to him. But he responded to the level of knowledge of God HE needed. Remember, Paul WANTED to serve God, and thought he was doing so - but had failed to recognize exactly WHO that was. Others need far less or require different sorts of barriers to faith removed before they can believe. God knows exactly what is needed vs. what is asserted needed. The first is truly critical, and God will provide that to the one who truly wants it, and as He knows providing it will be effective. He also knows the latter will never be effective, as there's a difference.Nessa: God reveals himself to the seeker and the non seeker as far as I'm aware...
zacchaeus wrote:Without God you have no morality- oh well
My view is a bit closer to Audie's view on the issue where as I don't believe I choose what I believe. For me belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before. While true; a person can choose to listen evidence that supports his agenda and he can choose to ignore evidence that may refute it, but he is still going with the evidence he receives even though he has control over what he receives. Hope that makes sense.Storyteller wrote:Ken...
do you actually want to believe in God?
B. W. wrote:During out privet email I brought up...Kenny wrote:How do you know this?Philip wrote: Absolutely, a derivative cannot have more power or intelligence than its source; it cannot do more than it was given capability, design and programming.
As I said before, if you don't accept actual infinities exist then that is all you need to reject the notion that there could be an infinite chain of cause and effect. On the other hand if you do accept that everything has a prior cause then it seems impossible to explain how the 'first thing' could have happened.Philip wrote: Ken, what sprang from that singularity is of such unfathable design and function, from the galactic level down to the microscopic, that we scarcely understand more than a tiny portion of it. NO supercomputer built by man is remotely close to the intricate design and functionality of a simple cell. From that singularity sprang immense, incomprehensible intelligent design and function, not to mention unfathomable power and scale of its reach. So, either this eternally existing singularity or some related, eternal, and prior component had its incredible sophistication and power. Bottom line, SOME eternal, incredibly powerful entity is responsible for all that exists.
Sorry about the bong comment.
Basically, it looks as if the universe shouldn't exist - but, despite the philosophical inconvenience - it does.
I take this to imply that whatever happened back then, intuition and simple common-sense logic is not going to tell us anything very useful. We must be missing an essential piece of the puzzle and until someone finds it, the origin of the universe is going to - or rather will appear to - defy logic.
As I see it, the Cosmological Argument (the argument you seem to be making) says something very obviously true - the origin of the universe must have been very peculiar. But it is an absurd leap of illogic to conclude universe was created by a god, even worse by God.
Might not one call whatever brought the universe into existence God? Well, maybe, but God is such a loaded term. 'God' implies an entity with a personality, with consciousness and desirses and preferences. For some, it even implies an entity that 'so loved the world he gave his only begotten son' etc., and who provides a home for dead souls. It is obviously going beyond valid logical inference to suppose all that is true just because the origin of the universe was a distinctly odd event.
God is very much 'god of the gaps', and the origin of the universe is a gap. But I doubt if it will be a gap forever. Until then theists can comfort themselves with the cosmological argument and atheists will continue to ignore it.
Ken
You hate it when people put expectations and demand your performance or else. Yet you do so toward God as others here. Why should God tap dance for you? He created the universe, allowed you to exist, battles evil at he same time is blamed for the evil and disease we cause!B. W. wrote:...We ignore (the existence of God) and pretend by spending a tremendous amount of time justifying that we can't hear him for this or that reason and demand he perform for us (to our satisfaction)...
Again Ken as stated earlier...
You are running in circles... and want proof of God existence?B. W. wrote:...He (God) has been speaking to you for some time but by your very admitted too imperfections, these have stopped up your ears to discount what you hear as valid so that you can continue to justify remaining as you are.... ...making the same old mistakes, succumb to the same old issues. Well, there is freedom from this, Ken.
As in the privet email - here is the only method...
So you think God will make demand on you to perform? Yet it is you who are demanding of him...B. W. wrote:God gives salvation freedom freely. All you have to do is want it and admit personally your own dysfunctions to him. It is easy, it is called praying. So I suggest you simply use this prayer as a template and add to it your own words...
Lord Jesus, have mercy upon me, I am a mess, and make so many messes. I ain't perfect and I doubt you so I ask you to release me, forgive me of all my wrongs and things I did awakened my within my own conscience and feel so bad about doing, I did this...
Have mercy upon me and make me know your name and that you are really real, forgive me, cleanse me, make me your own, grant me that new life - born again-ness all those folks tell me about. I want to hear you and know you. I feel let down because last time...
So this time...
I am reaching for you, have mercy on me and all I done, make me born of your Holy Spirit, release me the debts I feel I owe inside, never let me go. Reveal yourself to me by infilling me with your presence, in Jesus' name - amen
Ken - feel free to keep on praying too.
You want to know him and how real he is, well, that is the method... used to verify God is perfect because he came for you...
Blessings
Only one way - one method to know him and hear him... come as you are without one plea...
End of story, no ands, buts, or if's about it...
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Philip wrote:Ken, you'll never find that which you don't WANT to find! You'll never find that which you must seek. God will never show you more than you NEED (which is different, depending upon the particular man) - as opposed to what you assert you need. God says to a man, "THIS information is far more than enough for this particular man to know I exist, so that he will then pursue Me so that I will both confirm and subsequently strengthen it." While that particular man says to God (while pretending that God doesn't exist), "But I need THIS level of proof, or THAT specific thing" (and thus keeps moving the target for what proof he supposedly needs). God's response: "I won't give you more because it would be useless to you, because you do not have an INFORMATION problem, and what you assert you need, IF provided, would only be additionally rejected as well. And so, you have enough - it's YOUR responsibility now, I've done MY part. But I won't force your belief, I'll let YOU choose."
God addresses the above in Romans 1:18-25.
AND He will do so for ANYONE who is willing to and will want to believe, whom He foreknows will respond, at some point, to His opening of their eyes. He has already said to the world, He stands at the door knocking for "ANYONE" who invites Him in, that He desires "ALL" men come to repentance and salvation. But He also allows all to resist and reject Him.You cannot come to God unless He pricks your heart and quickens you.
Or "Paul" could have concocted the story like he did with the one about the snake.Philip wrote:This is true. However, He gives one enough reason and knowledge that makes it reasonable to seek more than He has ALREADY provided, if one feels they need and DESIRE more. But to ignore what one ALREADY has been shown (even just that He must exist), to ignore all reasonable evidence, to AVOID seeking to know MORE, to be determined to not believe except upon YOUR terms, God will not do this. He knows - and has ALWAYS known - what level of evidence and knowledge a person requires to know and seek Him out. The Apostle Paul required a radical, powerful attention getter. After being blinded on that road to Damascus, he could have rationalized that he had hallucinated, that some unknown illness had hit him, that no way could he have been wrong about that Christian "cult." And he spent some time afterward contemplating what had happened to him. But he responded to the level of knowledge of God HE needed. Remember, Paul WANTED to serve God, and thought he was doing so - but had failed to recognize exactly WHO that was. Others need far less or require different sorts of barriers to faith removed before they can believe. God knows exactly what is needed vs. what is asserted needed. The first is truly critical, and God will provide that to the one who truly wants it, and as He knows providing it will be effective. He also knows the latter will never be effective, as there's a difference.Nessa: God reveals himself to the seeker and the non seeker as far as I'm aware...
But, yes, Nessa, God does reach to us FIRST. If He did not, no one would be saved - an important and critical nuance.
No, not obvious at all. He offended many and still offends many. And then not every one finds 'made up' stories appealing. Not that I believe he is made up but others do.zacchaeus wrote:Jesus should obviously be the most appealing thing to anyone really...
Ken, what do you make of this quote?Kenny wrote:.