Morals without god/the bible

[Byblos]

It´s not that I´m refusing I have really treid to accept it, but I just can´t seem to do it.

I don´t mind answering that questions, if I'm wrong then, according to everything I've read, I'm gonna spend eternity in hell right?. That´s it I guess

And that's quite alright, as long as you can live with that (or not ). But what you certainly cannot do is go around claiming God is not logical.

[Manfer84]

You are correct Jlay, “The fact that DNA is a coded sequence. The fact that the earth sits on a particular axis, the earth's position, and the other things I mentioned are facts. Not opinions. The reality of human existence being a statistical wonder is not just how I feel. It is the truth.” It is a statistical wonder but I don´t see how you connect that to a supernatural being, when there could be a cause for it we haven´t discovered yet, that's all I'm saying.
It´s not enough for me to say God did it, it´s too easy an answer.
For me God creating the universe is like watching David Blaine pull a coin from behind my ear, nothing especial since he is David Blaine. But then you have the other side, this world, our “statistical wonder” coming into itself from "nothing", by who knows what means and actions, actions that if we get to discover them are probably more amazing that a being capable of anything making something, now I think that is something amazing and special.

And just to say it, I've had a close death experience, and don´t value my life more after it happened. My life is just one life, It doesn't matter t to the planet whether it's stopped or not, so yeah I actually don´t think life is that important in the big picture of the universe. Which doesn't mean that it´s not important to us (humanity as a race). I´m not that self centered to think that humanity is the center of all "creation".

I hope that last part didn't make me sound like a sociopath, which by the way I´m not.

[Byblos]

I hope that last part didn't make me sound like a sociopath, which by the way I´m not.

For some reason your conscience does not allow you to think of a sociopath as ordinary? How odd.

[Manfer84]

It´s not that I´m refusing I have really treid to accept it, but I just can´t seem to do it.

I don´t mind answering that questions, if I'm wrong then, according to everything I've read, I'm gonna spend eternity in hell right?. That´s it I guess

And that's quite alright, as long as you can live with that (or not ). But what you certainly cannot do is go around claiming God is not logical.

Well actually I can go around claiming whatever I want, I don´t do it because I think it's wrong to try and push my beliefs (or lack of) on other people, or say that what they belief is wrong, not saying you are doing so. I just go with what my gut tells me, I could be wrong, but so far in my life it´s worked.

So thank you for all your answers, it has been fun learning what you think.

[Byblos]

Well actually I can go around claiming whatever I want,

Well of course you can, that is certainly your prerogative. Trouble is when you claim something you can't substantiate, no one will take you seriously. I know, I know, you don't care what anyone else thinks; that much I've already gathered.

[Manfer84]

The thing Byblos is that I don´t have a better argument, I just don´t think about that stuff that much to come up with one, it doesn't, in any way, affect my life.
So I'm sorry but I´m not gonna be able to give you the debate you want. I'm just a guy saying what I feel and think and learning what other think and feel.

This is probably gonna make you write one big post but I'll just say it, I think that It´s because you believe in God that the whole : “there's the Bible and its authenticity and fulfillment of prophesies, there's the eyewitness testimony presented in the NT, there's the personal experience and witnessing miracles” makes sense to you. God is the answer for your questions, I just haven´t found mine.

In other words we have evidence for God and you don't, and yet you still insist on holding the position you hold without the slightest hint of rational thought. It's like a child who insists that the sky is purple all the while refusing to remove his hands from his eyes and looking up. But I can accept that; at least you're honest enough to admit it.

I Just have one simple question for you (to ask yourself really, no need to answer here): what if you're wrong?

It´s not that I´m refusing I have really treid to accept it, but I just can´t seem to do it.

I don´t mind answering that questions, if I'm wrong then, according to everything I've read, I'm gonna spend eternity in hell right?. That´s it I guess

Ok then, I senses that you have a pretty low opinion of me, hope I´m wrong.
Now I have one simple question for you, you also don´t have to answer, what would happen if it turns out you are wrong, that God actually doesn't exist? What would you do?

[Byblos]

Ok then, I senses that you have a pretty low opinion of me, hope I´m wrong.

Whatever gave you that idea? I happen to think it is you who has a low opinion of you.

Now I have one simple question for you, you also don´t have to answer, what would happen if it turns out you are wrong, that God actually doesn't exist? What would you do?

I will have been long dead and gone so to answer your question: nothing. Unfortunately for you, by the time you discover you're wrong it may be too late.

[Manfer84]

Ok then, I senses that you have a pretty low opinion of me, hope I´m wrong.

Whatever gave you that idea? I happen to think it is you who has a low opinion of you.

Now I have one simple question for you, you also don´t have to answer, what would happen if it turns out you are wrong, that God actually doesn't exist? What would you do?

I will have been long dead and gone so to answer your question: nothing. Unfortunately for you, by the time you discover you're wrong it may be too late.

Actually I´m very please with myself, and now I see I was wrong about what I thought you thought, so thats cool.

And the questions was more of what would happend if during your lifetime you found out God wasn´t real, not after you die. Sorry for not making it clear the first time.

[jlay]

It is a statistical wonder but I don´t see how you connect that to a supernatural being, when there could be a cause for it we haven´t discovered yet, that's all I'm saying.

I already explained. You wouldn't stare at a building, and say, "I didn't see it being built. We can't say there is a builder. There could be some other explanation." Seriously, saying we might one day discover something else isn't a reason to discard the reasonable conclusions of what we know now.

As Byblos pointed out. This is just one piece of the puzzle. There are many reasons to accept the reality of a Creator.

Actually I´m very please with myself, and now I see I was wrong about what I thought you thought, so thats cool.

What Byblos is saying is that he sees your life as more valuable according to his world view. According you to your own testimony, yes I agree with Byblos, you have a very poor view of your own value, and human value. He sees you as a wonderfully designed creation, of the creator. And that your life has eternal objective value. If you fully embrace the world view you are touting, then you have to admit that your life has no inherrent value. That in fact, you and I, are nothing more than over grown germs. And that there is no more value in being kind to others, as opposed to murdering others to get what you want. There is no basis by which you can ascribe true value. Only self-delusion. I would hope such a thought wars with your conscience.

[Manfer84]

Well not overgrown germs, but animal that just happen to develop higher brain functions (that's sounds weird but I hope you get my meaning).
And I think that once you die there is no more value in being kind to others, as opposed to murdering others to get what you want. But then again you make it sound like if tomorrow it turns out there is no God everyone would start murdering each other just for the fun of it, and I just don´t think that would happen.
And I don´t think life in on itself has any value; we give life its value.
And self-delusion about what?

[jlay]

You just answered that question.
You said, "we give life its value." That is self-delusion. In essence we are trying to asign value where there isn't any.

If there is no value once you die, how then do you say there is value while alive?

If I walk up to you with a gun and say, I'm going to kill you, what reason can you give other than your opinion as to why I shouldn't? The law? I don't care about the law. If I value killing you, and you value living, do you honestly believe that both of these are equal positions?

But then again you make it sound like if tomorrow it turns out there is no God everyone would start murdering each other just for the fun of it, and I just don´t think that would happen.

If everyone concluded that morality is only subjective, it can, will, and has led to great atrocities.

[Manfer84]

“If I walk up to you with a gun and say, I'm going to kill you, what reason can you give other than your opinion as to why I shouldn't? The law? I don't care about the law. If I value killing you, and you value living, do you honestly believe that both of these are equal positions?”

You just said that I'm wrong because I couldn't convince a murderer not to kill me. You think you could convince a murderer not to kill you, then please show every future victim how to do it so no one gets killed anymore, I would if I could.
Without society as a context yes I believe those positions are equal.

[jlay]

I think you totally missed the point of my analogy.
You are taking the position that life has no inherent value. That life is no more significant than an elephant fart. Inherently speaking of course.
The point is to show you that when confronted with these two value systems, it is easy to see that one is right, and one is wrong. There are two parties involved, so there is no majority ethic here. It is one ethic verses another. Life does have inherent value. Right and wrong can and are measured.

[B. W.]

B.W.
I read your post and it seems you say that because absolutes exist a moral absolute must exist, which I don´t seem to follow.

For absolute truth to exist, the opposite of such truth must exist as well, so that what is absolutely true is manifested and made known.

I hope that last part didn't make me sound like a sociopath, which by the way I´m not.

Why are you worried about being a sociopath?

What makes such people wrong in your eyes?
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[Manfer84]

B.W.
I read your post and it seems you say that because absolutes exist a moral absolute must exist, which I don´t seem to follow.

For absolute truth to exist, the opposite of such truth must exist as well, so that what is absolutely true is manifested and made known.

I hope that last part didn't make me sound like a sociopath, which by the way I´m not.

Why are you worried about being a sociopath?

What makes such people wrong in your eyes?
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Again, I understand that you say that absolutes exist, and I agree they exist, but (maybe is my lack of through understanding of the English language) how do you tie that to absolute morality.

That line was kind of a joke but, you don't think sociopaths are "wrong"? I think they are because of how they behave in accordance to our society, they are a problem to society so I think they are bad.