Evidence for God from Science

Gman wrote:

Wolfgang wrote:What we should be obeying? Well, it's easy to know what we should not be obeying, which are the offerings and sacrifices and Levitical priesthood, abolished in the book of Hebrews, and circumcision annulled in the book of Acts. People resurrected in the second resurrection will be judged (translation: expected to obey, according to some theologians) "by the things written in the books," or the Bible, which most likely, it seems, would be the remaining, un-abolished laws in the Bible. So maybe we need also to obey those remaining, un-abolished laws.

Yes, animal sacrifice is done away with but not sacrifice itself since Christ is doing that now for us.. Animal sacrifice however will be returning during the millennial reign of Yeshua (Christ) from Jerusalem Ezekiel 40:41, Ezekiel 44:11, but not in place of Christ's atoning work. Also we should keep in mind that both physical circumcision and circumcision of the heart will be necessary for anyone entering the Sanctuary during the millennial reign of Yeshua as recorded in Ezekiel 44:9. So it's not exactly done away with yet.

Hebrews 10:1-18
10 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very [a]form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3 But in [c]those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

“Sacrifice and offering You have not desired,
But a body You have prepared for Me;
6 In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure.
7 “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(In the scroll of the book it is written of Me)
To do Your will, O God.’”

8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He [d]said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By [e]this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for [f]sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are [g]sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws upon their heart,
And on their mind I will write them,”

He then says,

17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will remember no more.”

18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

RickD wrote: G, this is what I was referring to before about how I think I would agree with you if I understood what you were trying to say. You said above: "Yes, animal sacrifice is done away with but not sacrifice itself since Christ is doing that now for us.."

Are you saying that Christ is still sacrificing, even now?

RickD wrote:And, from where in scripture do you get this:"Animal sacrifice however will be returning during the millennial reign of Yeshua (Christ) from Jerusalem Ezekiel 40:41, Ezekiel 44:11, but not in place of Christ's atoning work."

Wolfgang wrote:Gman, Revelation 20:5,11,12: "...... 12 ..... and the dead were judged ....... by the things which were written in the books." The Greek for "books" refers to the books of the Bible. "Things" seemingly would be laws in the Bible. Verse 5's "This is the first resurrection" refers to the previous discussion of the resurrection immediately occurring when Jesus returns. Verse 11 discusses the second resurrection, although the Bible does not call it the second resurrection directly. Apparently the dietary, festival, tithing, Sabbath laws, New Testament marital and divorce laws (those marital laws are the tough ones to obey), etc. are major laws the dead, or newly resurrected, will need to obey, it seems.

RickD wrote:
G, this is what I was referring to before about how I think I would agree with you if I understood what you were trying to say. You said above: "Yes, animal sacrifice is done away with but not sacrifice itself since Christ is doing that now for us.."

Are you saying that Christ is still sacrificing, even now?

Gman wrote:
Rick.. Of course Christ's sacrificial atoning work is still place today... How else are believers going to be saved? I'm not talking about Christ physically coming down from the sky to Jerusalem to be crucified over and over again on the cross, that work was already done. What I'm talking bout here is Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross is still in play for believers who except Him as Lord in their life.

Gman wrote:
I just gave you the scripture from Ezekiel, but here it is again in Ezekiel 43:19-27 or Isaiah 56:7. Most Biblical scholars understand that animal sacrifice will be coming back during the millennium reign of Christ on this earth, not replacing Christ's work on the cross but for the gathering of His communion in the celebration of the feasts days. We kill animals all the time today. This simply will be done to commentate His atoning work on the cross. Families from all the nations will gather in Israel for this practice.. It is going to be a great time much like a giant barbecue. The real NFL

RickD wrote: I'm interested in how you came to this belief, G. Do you think you could post some links to all the biblical scholars who believe that animal sacrifice will return? Honestly, I've never heard that before. If most biblical scholars believe this, I'd like to see why.

RickD wrote:Thanks for the link G. I did a little searching on the site you posted, and came across this timely article:
http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-t ... more-12886


And this as well :
http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-t ... th-debate/

And don't forget this:
http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-t ... d-the-law/

By posting that website, as Our old friend DannyM used to say, you are hoist by your own petard.

Gman wrote:
It just goes to show you that you don't have to be a messianic to understand the millennial reign of Christ with their sacrifices.. So touché..

In the Messianic Fellowship I led, we celebrated only the Erev Shabbat (Friday night) service. Some of us also attended Sunday services in a Gentile Church. We observed the Feasts and Holy Days to learn about their traditions and the incredible spiritual and prophetic significance of each one. I think this contributed to a growth in our Biblical understanding that would have been impossible to achieve in any other way.

RickD wrote:Sorry G. I almost forgot this one:
http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-t ... e-sabbath/

RickD wrote:

Gman wrote:
It just goes to show you that you don't have to be a messianic to understand the millennial reign of Christ with their sacrifices.. So touché..

G, he is messianic. See from the "messianic Jews and the law" link:

In the Messianic Fellowship I led, we celebrated only the Erev Shabbat (Friday night) service. Some of us also attended Sunday services in a Gentile Church. We observed the Feasts and Holy Days to learn about their traditions and the incredible spiritual and prophetic significance of each one. I think this contributed to a growth in our Biblical understanding that would have been impossible to achieve in any other way.

G, do you have any other links you want to post that backup my argument?

I'll just sit back on my couch and let you argue against yourself.

RickD wrote:G, you're just like Wile E Coyote. And the website you posted is the ACME trap with which you keep injuring yourself.

Gman wrote:

RickD wrote:G, you're just like Wile E Coyote. And the website you posted is the ACME trap with which you keep injuring yourself.

Ok champ... You win.

Kurieuo wrote: And yet, we can do nothing to gain God's approval. Whether we pain or please God is something else though.

Kurieuo wrote:For example, I love my kids because they're mine. They don't necessarily please me all the time, and while I may not approve of what they always do; I most definitely approve of them and love them regardless. If me, being a human being can do this and God is the ultimate source of such love, than how much higher is God's love to my own? Surely God can afford me infinitely more grace, than I do my own children whether they're wilfully disobedient or not.

Thankfully, Christ is the method that allows God's love to win alongside God's righteousness. And so we only need to respond to Christ.

Kurieuo wrote:I sincerely would like us to find agreement. As such, I'm going to first focus on where we do agree in my understanding of your beliefs when you use this passage in James.

I agree that faith without works is dead. However, I'm sure every one who has responded to Christ has had change. It might be they still pick their nose, but you're right it is deeper than that. Because when a person sincerely responds to Christ, they do so from their heart -- the core of their very soul and being.

Such works might be evidenced in a desire to read the Bible, a new-found desire to pray to and/or worship God, even as simple as posting on boards like this one to defend Christianity. All these are "works" that reveal one's faith. On the other hand, it would make no sense at all for someone to respond to Christ from their very soul, only to then criticise Him in discussions with others and continue in thought and deed as before.

(1) I have personally witnessed some who have come to Christ during an alter call, only to thereafter be exactly the same person they were prior. Even actively mocking Christianity, displaying an unchanged state and complete misunderstanding of Jesus in labelling Him the God that failed due to his being executed. This is a "dead faith". No transformation happened whatsoever to this person. No seed take root, even though the person responded to an alter call.

That is certainly a "faith without works" that is dead. So my, and now doubt Rick, strongly agree that a faith in Christ without a desire to change, and in fact change, is dead. It is meaningless, not because the lack of works nullify the faith, but because the "faith" is shown to have not existed in the first place.

From here, I now wish to pay respect to James more fully starting at James 1:12:

• 12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has [m]been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted [n]by God”; for God cannot be tempted [o]by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin [p]is accomplished, it brings forth death. 16 Do not be [q]deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or [r]shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits [t]among His creatures.

Those who respond to Christ and love Him have been promised eternal life (v12 - "the crown of life"). We can expect to suffer all sorts of temptation in our lives -- we may win some, we may loose some -- but what matters is our love for Christ. It is based on this that we will be saved from God's righteousness which otherwise demands our own "death" for our sins.

Now we were brought forward (saved) by the word of truth (v18), which could be identified as Christ since He is said to be the Word made Flesh (John 1). With this we can move to the next passage.

• 19 This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; 20 for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God. 21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all [v]that remains of wickedness, in [w]humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls. 22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his [x]natural face in a mirror; 24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, [y]he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. 25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but [z]an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in [aa]what he does.

In Romans 1:18, Paul writes that the "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness." Because of their denial of "the truth" aka the "word of truth" (James 1:18) aka Christ: "God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, [v]haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them." (Romans 1:28-32)

James 1:19 talks of hearing the truth, but to hear it we must cast our wickedness aside. All the anger and the desire to lash out with our own words must be tamed, and we must be ready to hear the truth. So as we place aside our wickedness spoken of in Romans 1, including our anger against God and hate-filled tongue that stops us being receptive of the truth (James 1:19-21) -- all that remains is to in humility accept the Word of Truth that is able to save us (v.21). The words, "in humility" convey our being saved is not to do with our own works; for if it was, then we have nothing to be humble about. Rather, James in here conveying that "being saved" is all to do here with God's work -- the word of truth (Christ) implanted within us (v21) -- which saves our souls.

In verses 22-24, we come across the difference between someone who truly loves Christ, and someone who doesn't. That is, the person I made previous mention of in this post [paragraph beginning with (1) above] -- the person who responded to an alter call and did not change at all. Compared with the person who truly responds to Christ and is transformed, such that their actions now pay tribute to their belief in varying ways (whether they start reading the Bible, love praying or worshipping God, perhaps begins to defend Christ in online discussions like these, begin trying to understand and obey the Mosaic Law, becoming circumcised because they believe that's a Christian thing to do, or some other personal way). The fact is, what they do is predicated -- built upon -- their love for Christ; such that they would not have acted in such a way if they were not transformed in their love for God.

Now in verse 25, we have a conclusion of this passage. The person "who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it..." Notice here the words "law of liberty". What is this law? James is making an important distinction here from the law. Rather, the law that sets us free is based on the the word we receive in humility -- the Word of Truth (v17) -- Christ (John 14:6). We are promised freedom, the "crown of life" if "we love Him [Christ]" (v.12). This law, is none other than to love God (James 1:12). Whoever abides in loving God, not simply hearing the words but being affected by a heart change -- these will be blessed in their loving actions.

Yet, James does not want to just leave it at loving God. He also wants to tap into the second greatest commandment, which James begins emphasising the importance of:

• 26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not [ab]bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained [ac]by the world.

Here James is stressing the importance of loving in deed, rather than mere words. Words should be bridled with action. If someone is starving, it isn't enough to say, "God bless you, and may your belly be fill." No, give them the food they need for heavens sake. Words here are meaningless without action.

So too words are not enough for the truly religious (e.g., those who proclaim to love Christ). Rather, the ideal for those who love Christ is to help others out of love and be holy. That's right, I believe in grace, but I also believe one should remain holy and do their best to follow Christ. James clearly emphasises both here and it makes good sense to when loving others, as such love can become tragically misdirected and wrong.

For example, let's say a woman sells themselves on the street to make a living. It makes no sense in your helping them to then sleep with them and defile the love and help you were giving. We see the biggest staining happening in the media where say a Priest, paster or chaplain started desiring to help out of love, only to then be stained by sexual immorality. Remain pure in helping, yet keep yourself clean from staining the love you set out to give, thereby destroying your representation of Christ's love.

• James 2:1-7 - 1 My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. 2 For if a man comes into your [a]assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, 3 and you [c]pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, “You sit here in a good place,” and you say to the poor man, “You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool,” 4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil [d]motives? 5 Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor [e]of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and [f]personally drag you into [g]court? 7 Do they not blaspheme the fair name [h]by which you have been called?

James now elaborates further on loving others, through focusing on an issue of favouritism shown in the church towards those who look well off compared to those who are poor and dirty.

Something supposedly good -- gathering together to love and worship God -- is being stained through creating distinctions of persons in Christ based on material wealth (a worldly value), and as such dishonouring the poor. Yet, James points out God chose the poor of the world to be rich in faith and heirs of Christ's kingdom promised to ALL who love Him. Next, James points out that the rich tend to be more taken by the world, dragging others to court over personal matters (rather than simply forgiving and loving their neighbour or going the extra mile). Here James is doing a role reversal, saying the poor are often rich in spirit, while the rich are poor in spirit. Not always the case, yet James is trying to make his point on what is important really hit home with his listeners.

• 8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the [j]law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole [k]law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the [l]law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy [m]triumphs over judgment.

Now James more explicitly makes mention of Christ's second commandment to "love your neighbor as yourself" -- applying it to the case of favouritism James identified in the church. There was no law that prohibited showing partiality and favouritism, however James points out that in their showing partiality, they have transgressed all the law. This is revealing.

It shows the commandment to love your neighbour is not something prescribed, as the Law was prescribed to Moses and Israel by God. It isn't something set in stone, that you simply obey or don't obey. No, it is of the heart. Rather than giving your coat because it might be commanded, you give the person on the street two coats out of love if you really have their well-being at heart. This is the "Law of Love" of which Christ spoke. The 10 Commandments are built upon the Law of Love. It goes beyond the 10 Commandments. It goes beyond the Torah. God desires change in our very being -- love itself to be written our hearts.

James again mentions the "law of liberty" (2:12). As identified earlier in James 1, this law is to love God. We now have loving God including loving each other. As Christ says in Matthew 25:40, "I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me." So to love Christ also includes a love for one's brothers. Thus, those who showed favouritism and dishonoured the poorer brethren were dishonouring Christ Himself. Thus, they broke the "law of liberty" that James previously spoke of which is to do with loving God.

This passage ends with James emphasising that we should "speak and act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty" -- the law of loving God and others.

• 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can [n]that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [o]be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is [p]dead, being by itself.

Here, James uses an example to make his point that faith without works is dead. The example is one of a brother or sister needing clothing and food. If you just wish them well, but do not give them what they need, then your love is empty. Likewise, your love for God without any works is dead.

If you say you love God and yet you remain as you, then that's a dead love. Your faith too is dead [refer to the paragraph starting with (1) above]. Call it what you like, but you can't possibly have a love for God and then remain unchanged. Some change is going to happen. It's really inevitable.

However, to those reading who might become dismayed at this, don't be dismayed. If you are dismayed then that's a good sign because it likely shows you want to love God, and in fact do love God.

God doesn't expect someone starting with 1 talent to produce the same amount as someone starting with 10 as much. We each come to God at different stages in life. You no doubt have fruits being produced that even you are not aware to. They will produce themselves in time.

Understand this. Our works might justify our love for God to outsiders and those who don't know us. However, we can know we love God intimately and intuitively.

For example, we love our kids because we know we love them with/without looking to any of our works. So too we can know we love God with/without works. We have a private access to our selves that noone else except God has.

However, obviously some evidence that we love our kids/God ought to follow. It's just a natural progression that it should. And we'll strive to do what is best for our kids. Likewise with God, even if we know we fail, such will hopefully drive us to try harder. And with God's nurturing we'll grow.

• 18 But someone [q]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that [r]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was [t]perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God.

And here is the remaining part of the passage Gman quoted.

If we love God, then we'll strive to love God and others. There will be change within us when we truly respond to Christ.

Rest assured, you can also be secure in such change without looking to your works, for as previously mentioned, each of us has private access to ourselves - our feelings, thoughts and heart.

Now if you water a plant in good soil, it'll sprout. It can't not.

Kurieuo wrote: Consider God the Sun, Christ the soil, the Holy Spirit as the water and our heart the roots of the plant. God beams down upon us, planting us in Christ. With the watering of the Holy Spirit, all we need to do is open our hearts and soak up His love. A natural change is going to happen and we'll flower. This flowering is easier said than normally happens though.

A plant often has much growing to do before it flowers or produces fruit. In addition, unless properly protected and tendered to, the weather and world around the plant can destroy it. We too can be tossed around and put through much turbulence in life. But the One who looks after us is faithful. As Paul writes in Romans 8:

• 37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That's where I'll end my commentary.