Evidence for God from Science

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:
I don't see it as a change of position but more like articulating it properly. That I positively and absolutely trust God over my own feelings was never, ever in doubt. Neither was the fact that I can only muster a moral assurance when looking inwardly. Make of that as you wish.

I'm glad you said that. And it seems our views aren't really different after all. I just feel like I wasted a lot of time arguing against you with this, when a lot of time and confusion could've been saved if I was able to understand your position better. But, I guess it's better late than never for me.

Honestly, this is one issue that really stumps me as one who trusts God, and takes His promises seriously. I can't understand how a believer, who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, wouldn't believe God will keep us. And how despite our failings, that God would ever forsake us. As I know how unreliable my heart is, I can only trust in Him. I just see the contrast of how unfaithful I am to Him, and yet He remains true to His promises.

It's never a waste of time when it's done in love and respect. And as our mutual good friend is fond of saying, let iron sharpen iron.

and right back at you

Ok. I reckon there is still an issue with some of the (a's) or (b's) below. This is my summary of views / opposing views.

(ia) the 'act' of being saved occurs just after death
(ib) the 'act' of being saved occurs while a person is still alive
(ii) the assurance (or guarantee) of salvation occurs at any time while a person is alive
(iiia) the person may or may not be aware of the fact that they have received salvation while still alive
(iiib) the person is always made aware of the fact that they have received salvation while still alive
(iva) the 'will' of a person ceases to function after death so there is no chance of changing your mind and getting saved after death
(ivb) there might be a small chance of getting saved after death by other means (i.e., 3rd party prayer/intercession)

others to consider......

(va) you cannot lose salvation once given
(vb) you can lose salvation i.e., backslide (unlikely from most people's arguments)
(via) you are chosen for salvation before you are born (predestination)
(vib) some are chosen for salvation before they are born and some are not (semi-predestination)
(vic) no one is chosen for salvation before they are born (no predestination)
(viia) everyone is eventually saved (eternal damnation/hell is not completely eternal)
(viib) not everyone is saved (eternal damnation/hell is eternal)

jac you are wrong you have just twisted what Jesus said to get out of it what you wont.

Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

so it is not just what we are saying it is what we are do that comes from the heart.
if our heart is right we will live right if it is evil we will do evil.

Matthew 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

So you can see that God wants the out side of the cup clean as well.

The way it is is that we get our hearts right then God gives us strength to do right which make the out side clean.

God wants the inside and the out side clean but the out side can't be clean until the in side is clean.

This verse says that a good man will do good because his heart is right and an evil man will do evil because his heart is not right. So if your heart is right then you will be living right.
Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

these verses explain why Jesus said if you lust after a women in your heart that you have allrady sinned. Because these thing come from the heart.
So Jesus said to clean the heart first and we do that by getting saved then when we get saved the out side will also be clean. Why because if the Heat is right then these thought wont come from it so if these thought don't come from the heart then we will not do them which makes the out side clean.

so Jesus basically said Not to try and live right to be clean but to get your heart right and you will live right and will be clean.

Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Matthew 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Verses 17- 19 says to for us to not be sinning and that sinners sin because they do not know God because of there ignorance and they are ignorant because there heart are blinded.

Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Ephesians 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Ephesians 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Verses 20 - 24 says that if you are saved then you should put off the old man that makes us want to sin and put on the new man which makes us want to do right

Ephesians 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Ephesians 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Verses 25 - 32 tell us sense we are able to take off the old man that makes us want to sin and we are able to put on the new man that makes us want to live right we should stop sinning because when we do we are grieving the spirit of God that is giving us the desire to live right and lastly to completely stop sinning.

Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Hey jpbg, (I almost forgot what everyone was arguing about). Part of what you wrote looks like it supports OSAS.

"Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. "


On a side note:

I was thinking of Judas Iscariot of late. He would have been the biggest back-slider in History (if, in fact, salvation was available before the crucifixion).

Interestingly, if Judas never sold out Jesus, we would all end up being, to use a common expression, "up hell's creek without a paddle" or at least, stuck somewhere in Limbo.

So even the worse sin may play a role in God's plan.

Joh_6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Judas was never a Christian anyways he didn't backslid because he was never there to began with. Whether any of them were Christians as we are today before Jesus died on the cross. I do not know but I do know that Jesus said he could forgive all your sins before he was crucified. So I think they could have been at the very least Jesus had forgiven them of all there sins.

(I need to clarify something that I said when I put "was never there to began with" referring to Judas I meant that he was never saved not that he didn't follow Jesus. When I read that comment again it sounded to me like I meant he wasn't there at all, but yes he was 1 of the 12)

"Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. "

I do not think this verse says you are saved and can't backslid but that as long as you are saved it keeps you unto the day of redemption.

The Bible clearly indicates that Judas was not saved. Jesus Himself said of Judas, “The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born” (Matthew 26:24). Here is a clear picture of the sovereignty of God and the will of man working together. God had, from ages past, determined that Christ would be betrayed by Judas, die on the cross for our sins, and be resurrected. This is what Jesus meant when He said He would “go just as it is written about him.” Nothing would stop the plan of God to provide salvation for mankind.

However, the fact that it was all foreordained does not excuse Judas or absolve him from the punishment he would suffer for his part in the drama. Judas made his own choices, and they were the source of his own damnation. Yet the choices fit perfectly into the sovereign plan of God. God controls not only the good, but also the evil of man to accomplish His own ends. Here we see Jesus condemning Judas, but considering that Judas travelled with Jesus for nearly three years, we know He also gave Judas ample opportunity for salvation and repentance. Even after his dreadful deed, Judas could have fallen on his knees to beg God’s forgiveness. But he did not. He may have felt some remorse born of fear, which caused him to return the money to the Pharisees, but he never repented, preferring instead to commit suicide, the ultimate act of selfishness (Matthew 27:5-8).

In John 17:12, Jesus prays concerning His disciples, “While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.” At one time, though, Judas believed that Jesus was a prophet, or possibly even believed He was the Messiah. Jesus sent the disciples out to proclaim the gospel and perform miracles (Luke 9:1-6). Judas was included in this group. Judas had faith, but it was not a true saving faith. Judas was never “saved,” but for a time he was a follower of Christ.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Judas-saved ... z3SrMBJg8M

jpbg33 wrote:
"Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. "


I do not think this verse says you are saved and can't backslid but that as long as you are saved it keeps you unto the day of redemption.

And this pretty much sums up all of your posts on this subject. They make absolutely no sense.
First, all along you have been saying that to backslide =losing salvation.

With that, you are now saying that Eph 4:30 does not say you can't backslide(lose salvation), but as long as you are saved "it"(whatever "it" is) will keep you saved until the day of redemption.

So, in other words, your interpretation of the verse says that one who is saved, can lose salvation, unless one is saved, then that person is kept saved until the day of redemption.

And I hope you can see, again, that you have a contradiction in your own words.

And FYI, the Holy Spirit is not an "it". He is the third person of the Holy Trinity. And He is God.

I wasn't saying the Holy Spirit was a thing I mistakenly put "it" that was a over sight and I am going to leave it that way so if someone reads though these post they will know what we are talking about.

The people who the this verse is referring to are Christians and was only saying that Christians are kept by the Holy Spirit not that they were forced to go to heaven because they were tricked into getting saved. So as long as we are saved the Holy Spirit is there helping us until we get to heaven. Why is this important because it is impossible for us to live right in and of our self's. So the Holy Spirit is there to give us the strength we need to make it all the way to the end but He doesn't make us do right He just gives us the strength to do right it is still up to us to make the right choices in life.

anyways the bible says the wages of sin is death and that goes for sinners and Christians alike. We know that it is not talking about a physical death because Christians and sinners both die so it is talking about a Spiritual death.

jpbg33 wrote: The people who the this verse is referring to are Christians and was only saying that Christians are kept by the Holy Spirit not that they were forced to go to heaven because they were tricked into getting saved. So as long as we are saved the Holy Spirit is there helping us until we get to heaven. Why is this important because it is impossible for us to live right in and of our self's. So the Holy Spirit is there to give us the strength we need to make it all the way to the end but He doesn't make us do right He just gives us the strength to do right it is still up to us to make the right choices in life.

anyways the bible says the wages of sin is death and that goes for sinners and Christians alike. We know that it is not talking about a physical death because Christians and sinners both die so it is talking about a Spiritual death.

Salvation by works.
Repent of this heresy.

I'm not meaning it in the way you are taking it what I am trying to say is that you do wrong because you are not saved and we do right because we are.

I was just explaining that we get the strength from God to do right not from our selves. That in and of our selves we can not live right but when we get save the Holy Spirit is there giving us the strength we need to do right and that is the only way we can live right is though He's strength. I am not saying that we do right to stay saved but that if we chose to make the wrong choices then we are making those choices because we have already lost our faith in God and the belief in God we have at that time is no better then the belief a demon has in Jesus.

jpbg33 wrote:I'm not meaning it in the way you are taking it what I am trying to say is that you do wrong because you are not saved and we do right because we are.

I was just explaining that we get the strength from God to do right not from our selves. That in and of our selves we can not live right but when we get save the Holy Spirit is there giving us the strength we need to do right and that is the only way we can live right is though He's strength. I am not saying that we do right to stay saved but that if we chose to make the wrong choices then we are making those choices because we have already lost our faith in God and the belief in God we have at that time is no better then the belief a demon has in Jesus.

But that doesn't make any sense because we see all the time that non-Christians are capable of doing good and do all the time, and Christians are definitely capable of doing bad and do all the time. How do you explain that?

There is a big difference in living right and doing good and living wrong and making a mistake

Anyone can do right every once and a while but only Christians can live right all the time. Even Christians can't in and of them self's but Christians do it though the strength of the Holy Spirit.

Being able to live right all the time doesn't mean that you will not sin but if you do sin you will repent and stop sinning.

You backslid when you stop repenting and keep sinning.

I have a question I know the word church is more than just a building since the word means to assembly. So I haven't been going to church the building not because I don't want to but I haven't been feeling welcome. Is that bad?

It isn't a sin to not go to church but we go to church to get encouragement from other believers.

But if we are not filling welcome at a particular church then we need to find a church that make us fill welcome.