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Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:36 pm
by RickD
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:53 am
RickD wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:58 am
Paul,
The issue is the 10 commandments,
as a whole.
We ought not murder, not because the 10 commandments says so. The 10 commandments say do not murder because we are to love our brother.
We don't need to follow the 10 commandments, to know that we ought not murder our neighbor.
Of course but you realize that the issue is that, those the believe that the 10 Commandments are in place for all believers, believe that the sabbath is still in place.You may not need the 10 commandments to know it is wrong to murder and steal, but what about the sabbath?
Not everyone. There are some that believe the moral part of the OT law is binding on believers, but the sabbath law isn't, because it's part of the ceremonial law.
As believers, we don't live according to OT law. Period. If we want to live as disciples of Christ, we should focus on loving God, and showing love for our neighbor.
Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:47 am
by PaulSacramento
The commandments were given to Israel to regulate their worship and their behavior.
The things mentioned in the 10 commandments didn't become sacred or duty because they were commanded at the time, the 10 commandments re-affirmed them, straight from God.
They didn't need the commandments to KNOW that murder and theft and coveting were wrong, the commandments simply re-affirmed it and made it LAW.
Do all people under God need to follow the 10 commandments is the question and, biblically speaking, the answer to that is:
Yes, and no.
Yes we must follow the commandments given By God through Christ BUT HOW we follow them is of personal conscience.
Especially the sabbath, as Paul makes clear multiple times, as Jesus makes clear also.
Are we still to have no God other than God? Yes.
Are we still to honor father and mother? to not murder? to not steal or covet? Yes to all.
Are we still to honor the sabbath and keep it holy? Yes, according to out conscience and in our way, as individuals.
How do we know that?
Because Christ said the Sabbath was made for MAN, not the other way around.
Because Paul said that HOW a person keeps special days is UP TO THEM.
Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:47 am
by RickD
PaulS wrote:
Are we still to honor the sabbath and keep it holy? Yes, according to out conscience and in our way, as individuals.
No. Christ is our sabbath rest. By observing the OT sabbath law, one is actually denying Christ has come and fulfilled the sabbath.
WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW!
Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:22 pm
by PaulSacramento
RickD wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:47 am
PaulS wrote:
Are we still to honor the sabbath and keep it holy? Yes, according to out conscience and in our way, as individuals.
No. Christ is our sabbath rest. By observing the OT sabbath law, one is actually denying Christ has come and fulfilled the sabbath.
WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW!
Take it easy Calvin, no need to yell.
As Paul said:
Colossians 2:16
It works for those that do NOT keep OR keep the sabbath.
Romans 14 English Standard Version (ESV)
Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another
14 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master[a] that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess
to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Do Not Cause Another to Stumble
13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.[c] 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.[d]
Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:34 pm
by RickD
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:22 pm
RickD wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:47 am
PaulS wrote:
Are we still to honor the sabbath and keep it holy? Yes, according to out conscience and in our way, as individuals.
No. Christ is our sabbath rest. By observing the OT sabbath law, one is actually denying Christ has come and fulfilled the sabbath.
WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW!
Take it easy Calvin, no need to yell.
As Paul said:
Colossians 2:16
It works for those that do NOT keep OR keep the sabbath.
Romans 14 English Standard Version (ESV)
Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another
14 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master[a] that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess
to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Do Not Cause Another to Stumble
13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.[c] 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.[d]
First,
I wasn't yelling. I just spoke louder, so you'd hear me. And second, those verses don't even mention honoring the sabbath. Honoring the sabbath was a specific part of OT law, and is not the same thing as a believer holding to one day more important than another.
The sabbath laws pointed forward to the coming messiah, and our rest in him. So again, by honoring the sabbath, and keeping it holy, you are denying the work of Christ, who has fulfilled the law, including the sabbath.
Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:47 am
by PaulSacramento
No, those verse do not mean that one SHOULD keep the sabbath, it means that wither or not a person CHOOSES to keep the sabbath, BOTH are correct if the person is doing it to honour God and that NO ONE should judge another ( from BOTH sides of the argument) on what days they choose to observe OR NOT.
Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:54 am
by RickD
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:47 am
No, those verse do not mean that one SHOULD keep the sabbath, it means that wither or not a person CHOOSES to keep the sabbath, BOTH are correct if the person is doing it to honour God and that NO ONE should judge another ( from BOTH sides of the argument) on what days they choose to observe OR NOT.
Where in the verses that you posted, does it say anything about the sabbath?
Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:29 am
by PaulSacramento
Colossians 2:16
And from Romans:
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord.
Colossians explicitly mentions the sabbath and Romans refers to ANY day.
Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:33 am
by RickD
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:29 am
Colossians 2:16
And from Romans:
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord.
Colossians explicitly mentions the sabbath and Romans refers to ANY day.
Paul, in Colossians 2:16, the false teachers were trying to prohibit the Colossians from
refraining from attending religious festivals and observing the sabbath. In other words, the false teachers were trying to make the Colossians observe OT law.
Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:59 am
by PaulSacramento
RickD wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:33 am
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:29 am
Colossians 2:16
And from Romans:
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord.
Colossians explicitly mentions the sabbath and Romans refers to ANY day.
Paul, in Colossians 2:16, the false teachers were trying to prohibit the Colossians from
refraining from attending religious festivals and observing the sabbath. In other words, the false teachers were trying to make the Colossians observe OT law.
Yes, of course, BUT Paul doesn't say NOT to observe the Sabbath, as in Romans, Paul states that it is up to the individual to decide WHY they choose to observe ( or not) on day above another.
As long as they are doing it FOR GOD either way.
In short, anyone that says a person NOT observing the sabbath is going against God's teachings is passing judgment on another and is wrong.
As is the person saying that OBSERVING the sabbath is going against God's teaching is is also passing judgment on another and is wrong.
Unless, of course, either the observing, or not, are done for motives OUTSIDE of God.
Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:38 pm
by RickD
PaulS wrote:
Yes, of course, BUT Paul doesn't say NOT to observe the Sabbath, as in Romans, Paul states that it is up to the individual to decide WHY they choose to observe ( or not) on day above another.
As long as they are doing it FOR GOD either way.
But paul does say not to observe the sabbath.
Colossians 2:16-17
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Paul was speaking of the false teachers who were judging the Colossians, because the false teachers wanted the Colossians to live as Jews, obeying the OT law.
In verse 17, Paul says that those things listed in verse 16, including the sabbath, are a mere shadow of what is to come. And the substance belongs to Christ.
Again, Paul specifically calls the Sabbath, a shadow of Christ. Which isn't binding, since Christ has come. The shadow pointed to Christ. If anyone observes the shadow, he is denying that Christ is come.
Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:42 am
by PaulSacramento
RickD wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:38 pm
PaulS wrote:
Yes, of course, BUT Paul doesn't say NOT to observe the Sabbath, as in Romans, Paul states that it is up to the individual to decide WHY they choose to observe ( or not) on day above another.
As long as they are doing it FOR GOD either way.
But paul does say not to observe the sabbath.
Colossians 2:16-17
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Paul was speaking of the false teachers who were judging the Colossians, because the false teachers wanted the Colossians to live as Jews, obeying the OT law.
In verse 17, Paul says that those things listed in verse 16, including the sabbath, are a mere shadow of what is to come. And the substance belongs to Christ.
Again, Paul specifically calls the Sabbath, a shadow of Christ. Which isn't binding, since Christ has come. The shadow pointed to Christ. If anyone observes the shadow, he is denying that Christ is come.
Where does Paul say that observing the sabbath is denying Christ?
Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:55 am
by DBowling
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:42 am
Where does Paul say that observing the sabbath is denying Christ?
Paul worships on the Sabbath
Acts 18:1-4
Paul worships on the First Day of the Week
Acts 20:7
Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:06 am
by RickD
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:42 am
RickD wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:38 pm
PaulS wrote:
Yes, of course, BUT Paul doesn't say NOT to observe the Sabbath, as in Romans, Paul states that it is up to the individual to decide WHY they choose to observe ( or not) on day above another.
As long as they are doing it FOR GOD either way.
But paul does say not to observe the sabbath.
Colossians 2:16-17
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Paul was speaking of the false teachers who were judging the Colossians, because the false teachers wanted the Colossians to live as Jews, obeying the OT law.
In verse 17, Paul says that those things listed in verse 16, including the sabbath, are a mere shadow of what is to come. And the substance belongs to Christ.
Again, Paul specifically calls the Sabbath, a shadow of Christ. Which isn't binding, since Christ has come. The shadow pointed to Christ. If anyone observes the shadow, he is denying that Christ is come.
Where does Paul say that observing the sabbath is denying Christ?
I don't know if he says it or doesn't say it. I wasn't claiming that he did say it.
Re: God's Ten Commandments? Still valid?
Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:08 am
by RickD
DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:55 am
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:42 am
Where does Paul say that observing the sabbath is denying Christ?
Paul worships on the Sabbath
Acts 18:1-4
Paul worships on the First Day of the Week
Acts 20:7
I'm not sure who this is for. I'm not arguing against worshipping on any specific day of the week. I'm specifically talking about observing the OT sabbath laws.