Re: Are we still required to follow Mosaic law?
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:41 pm
I know.. You are just trying to get under my skin...RickD wrote: I'm just teasing G. Just trying to get you riled up.
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
I know.. You are just trying to get under my skin...RickD wrote: I'm just teasing G. Just trying to get you riled up.
Thanks I like it.. A lot.RickD wrote:Just for you Gman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cVlTeIA ... ata_player
You know K.. There is always skype.Kurieuo wrote: Yes, I just wish we could sit down over a glass or two to discuss the matter.
Words used often miscommunicate or cause reaction. Sometimes one can accentuated the opposite to try bring balance where they see imbalance, and I think this often happens in discussions like these.
Being able to discuss in person, can more often than not settle a dispute. Since clarifications can always be made, and we can even correct ourselves as we go. Whereas with posts like this, it's like you've got one shot to say something, and not only do you have to say it correctly, you have to ensure you say it in a way that will be read correctly also. Very tricky to do.
In any case, read my last post. You'll find some "faith" and "action" in there.
Just to be clear you are saying that these apply to Jews only or both Jews or gentiles?Yes, animal sacrifice is done away with but not sacrifice itself since Christ is doing that now for us.. Animal sacrifice however will be returning during the millennial reign of Yeshua (Christ) from Jerusalem Ezekiel 40:41, Ezekiel 44:11, but not in place of Christ's atoning work. Also we should keep in mind that both physical circumcision and circumcision of the heart will be necessary for anyone entering the Sanctuary during the millennial reign of Yeshua as recorded in Ezekiel 44:9. So it's not exactly done away with yet.
G, I comprehend what your saying. True faith is belief and action in one tidy statement. The example would be that if you have faith that you are standing on a cliff and that taking a step forward would result in you falling to your death then you would not take the step because of your faith, and this is the most correct understanding from our english conceptual understanding.Gman wrote:I don't know if I would exactly say that faith it dependent on anything. Rather it seems a description of what faith is alone (what it actually means by itself). As an example if we say that we have faith, but lack the willingness to change course into G-d's direction of righteousness, that would be a dead faith.
KBCid wrote:seriously... now I am asked to work with someones post whom I can't directly interact with?
The idea for me here is that I am trying to understand 'your' position because you are the one interacting with me in this discussion. By giving a foundation from someone else I can't clearly define how you reached your understanding nor can I discuss specific points on someone elses points with you as you may not be able to delve deeper into the rationale that they used.Kurieuo wrote:No, I didn't asked you to respond or work with anything.
G, this post exemplifies my current understanding because it contains faith and works as a single understanding of love. By stating that it is important "how we love" you are clearly pointing to the action side as being cojoined with faith in an expression of love itself and from my understanding this is exactly inline with our contemporary understanding of what it means to truely love.Gman wrote:Ok... I will briefly respond to some of these points...
Again... The ultimate commandment is to love... That is fine. We all want the plot.. However then next question is HOW WE LOVE. That is what we mean by following G-d's commandments. Otherwise we will define how to love under our own understanding and make up our OWN rules.. Notice how Paul ALWAYS goes back to G-d's commandments for the definition of love and sin..
Romans 7:7, What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."
That is the point here. Seeing the LOVE behind G-d's commandments and wanting to do it in FAITH...
Ok then there is nothing a believer can do once we accept Christ to lose the free gift of salvation?RickD wrote:KBC,Yes, when we accept Christ, we are saved. Period.
We are absolutely not required to 'perform' in any specific manner past that point. God will essentially mold our desires and actions for us independant of our own free will.RickD wrote:Then the process of sanctification begins. As God sanctifies a believer, the believer will naturally(in the spirit) turn from sin. But, the sinful nature is still there, fighting with the new creature(spiritual nature). See Galatians 5:17:For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
Point taken.RickD wrote:Of course the HS is our teacher. He also sanctifies a believer. Salvation is a one time deal that happens upon one's belief in Christ. But, there's more to a believer's walk with God. The HS doesn't stop working in a believer after the moment of salvation. But saying the HS doesn't play a part in coming to a belief in Christ, isn't accurate. If a believer presents the gospel of Jesus Christ by the power of the HS, to an unbeliever, and the unbeliever is convicted, and believes on Christ for his salvation, then of course the HS plays a part in one coming to a saving faith in Christ.
I definitely can understand discipline but...RickD wrote:Our actions as a believer show that God is working in us. If a believer freely chooses to do something other than what the HS is leading us to do, then God will discipline us. But, God disciplines us because we are His children. He doesn't kick us out of His family because we sin.
Ok so your understanding and belief is the first choice then.RickD wrote:KBC, let's take #1 first: I believe one is saved at the moment one places his faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation is a free gift to all who believe. See John 3:14-16: "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. When one believes in Christ, one is now part of God's family. Salvation is assured. The "process" for salvation is belief in Jesus Christ. Notice the text doesn't say, "whoever believes in Him(and stops sinning)..."
Rick if your choice is the first statement then you cannot also choose the second as well. By choosiing the first you are saying essentially that no action on the part of the believer can ever change the fact that they are saved. Thus no matter whether we 'learn' anything or actively participate it has no consequence past the point of initial belief. From your post I am comprehending that in such a case as the believer is persistent in no learning or participating then God will simply bypass our free will and make us conform to his will.RickD wrote:Now #2: I would agree that a believer grows as a believer, by "participation". By praying, reading the bible, etc. Since salvation happens at the moment one places his faith in Christ, then "participation" as you say, happens after salvation, and during sanctification.
I think I'm seeing that you think salvation is a lifelong process. Whereas I'm saying salvation is a one time deal, and sanctification is a lifelong process.
I hope that clears up what I believe, if I explained it properly.
Yes both ethnic Jews and gentiles in Christ...neo-x wrote:Just to be clear you are saying that these apply to Jews only or both Jews or gentiles?Yes, animal sacrifice is done away with but not sacrifice itself since Christ is doing that now for us.. Animal sacrifice however will be returning during the millennial reign of Yeshua (Christ) from Jerusalem Ezekiel 40:41, Ezekiel 44:11, but not in place of Christ's atoning work. Also we should keep in mind that both physical circumcision and circumcision of the heart will be necessary for anyone entering the Sanctuary during the millennial reign of Yeshua as recorded in Ezekiel 44:9. So it's not exactly done away with yet.
Ok, it sound's better.. But I would still rephrase it. I like 2..KBCid wrote:
1) The free gift of salvation is entirely dependant on faith in Christ and has no dependancy on our active participation in the process.
2) The free gift of salvation is dependant on both faith in Christ 'AND' a dependancy on our active participation in becoming righteous.
Yes, but I wouldn't think we would magically just know how to love... I think that is where the Holy Spirit comes in to guide in instruction in His works of righteousness in Christ which can emanate from His word, the Bible. At least that is what the Bible says...KBCid wrote: G, this post exemplifies my current understanding because it contains faith and works as a single understanding of love. By stating that it is important "how we love" you are clearly pointing to the action side as being cojoined with faith in an expression of love itself and from my understanding this is exactly inline with our contemporary understanding of what it means to truely love.
If we love our wife we don't cheat on her physically nor do we mentally look on other women with desire right?
If we love God we don't make any handmade images to worship him through because he has stated his position on this type of action.
If we love our neighbor then we don't murder them because God has stated the proper position on this.
this is faith and works being cojoined in the single meaning of love.
Hmm, I don't know if I would necessarily say that the Bible teaches that faith and works are separate points, perhaps that is how we perceive that, but not really what it is saying. It does say only by "faith" but it doesn't really say what faith is.. Faith typically means a "trust" but trusting in something, which is Christ. Faith is also believing.. So it isn't a black or white issue.KBCid wrote:True love as intended to be applied by the two greatest commandments according to my understanding is faith and works functioning as one even though the scriptures appear to treat them as separate points.
Sure I would buy that...KBCid wrote:The fruit of the spirit is any expression exhibited in actions that originates from belief and faith. So if we love God then we are not only willing to accept his direction through instruction but also it is the intention to apply it as we continue to exist during our life.
Sure but we don't continually obey Torah to justify ourselves either unto salvation... That is the point I'm making.Wolfgang wrote:Matthew 7:23: "....... I NEVER EVER knew you: depart from Me, you who violate the torah!" --- exeGeses Companion Bible.
I hate to say it and don't want to say it, but that verse almost shouts that salvation is not just a little bit, but is extremely dependent on obedience. That is so simple to understand that you would need someone else to help you misunderstand that.
Wolfgang,Wolfgang wrote:Matthew 7:23: "....... I NEVER EVER knew you: depart from Me, you who violate the torah!" --- exeGeses Companion Bible.
I hate to say it and don't want to say it, but that verse almost shouts that salvation is not just a little bit, but is extremely dependent on obedience. That is so simple to understand that you would need someone else to help you misunderstand that.
Wolfgang,Matthew 7:15-23
15 “Beware of the afalse prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are bravenous wolves.
16 “You will 1aknow them by their fruits. 2Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 “So aevery good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 “aEvery tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 “So then, you will 1know them aby their fruits.
21 “aNot everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 “aMany will say to Me on bthat day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many 1miracles?’
23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; adepart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’