Evidence for God from Science

I just printed out that particular section of the Catechsim Paras 1030 - 1032
"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but Still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death, they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire.
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgement, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be fore given in this, but certain others in the age to come.
"This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore (Judas Maccabeus) made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them,


A question -- If all who die in God's grace and friendship are indeed "assured of their eternal salvation" -- then Why would there be a need For 'purification'. To achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven." So - Who or What determines when the holiness necessary Has been accomplished.

Scripture says that upon death of a believer -- we receive a body just like Jesus / a new glorified body. No need for any additional purification.

And 'this final purification of the elect' -- The 'elect' being those who are going to be in heaven. They will Be with Jesus upon death -- the glorified body. Again, no Need for additional purification.

"Whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come." And, 'for certain lesser faults....there is a purifying fire." So - what Are those lesser faults? I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."


So - what about Ephesians 2:8 - 9 "For by grace you are saved through faith, and That , not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, Not of works, lest any man should boast....."

Scripture says that Now is the day of salvation. Once we're dead -- our decision-making time is Gone.

We CAN honor our dead -- we go to the grave site and leave flowers -- and we Miss them.

What is the purpose of a priest giving a person the last rights when they are dying? Isn't That supposed to be giving them forgiveness of any last sins that have been committed?

It is clear that Judas Maccabaeus prayed for the dead. In fact he was specifically praying that some dead soldiers who appeared to have died in sin might have their sins ameliorated, and he and his followers were prepared to offer four pounds of silver, presumably to the temple, in the hope of effecting just that. That's biblical, and offers precedent for the idea that some sins might be able to be relieved after death. There are also the two rather imprecise references to the refiner's fire in 1 Corinthians and 1 Peter. It is, however, also clear that prayers for the dead have been a common Christian practice from a very early age. Although my understanding of the theology of purgatory is poor, it does not seem that any of your scriptural references, about receiving new bodies, or being saved by grace, necessarily precludes an intermediate stage between death and eternal bliss, nor does the idea of purgatory imply that there is any possibility of 'failure to pass' purgatory so that heaven is not guaranteed. When I was much younger I remember it being suggested that purgatory might actually be a stage through which all the saved, aware nevertheless of their previous earthly imperfections, actually volunteered, if not demanded, to go through in order to make themselves more worthy of the presence of God.

You rather tentatively say: "We CAN honor our dead -- we go to the grave site and leave flowers -- and we Miss them," and indeed we do, but in practice, as I mentioned first, throughout Christendom, in almost every denomination (except yours, obviously), we actually ask for God's blessing - rest, light, peace - upon the dead, in so many words, as if our prayers could somehow make a difference. Obviously, they cannot make a difference to eternal bliss, so some kind of relief of the intermediate, purification, stage, seems indicated.

What is the purpose of a priest giving a person the last rights when they are dying? Isn't That supposed to be giving them forgiveness of any last sins that have been committed?

In a word, no.

Then why are the last rights given? Or has that practice changed.

But Why --Since they cannot make a difference to eternal bliss -- -- so -- some kind of relief of the intermediate stage seems indicated. But Why?

As for Judas Maccabaeus -- praying for the dead, etc. Why is that Biblical?

David was a man after God's heart, but he committed adultery with Bathsheba and That was Wrong. So is it okay to justify adultery because a Godly man did it? In other words, just because well-known people / people who are highly thought-of do 'things' do we find reasons to justify their actions.

The Maccabbaes -- the Apocraphal books are history between the Old and New Testaments -- but some of the teachings in those books don't agree with what is in the accepted books of the Old and New Testaments.

Refiners' fire referred to in 1 Corinthians and 1 Peter -- could you be more specific? You might be referring to Matt. 3:11.

We Do ask God's blessings on those who are doing God's work in dangerous places. And for those who have lost loved ones or close friends to death. Not the lost loved ones but those who are still alive -- that the Living loved one's can have peace and rest in their time of loss.

That's part of my question -- who or what actually determines how long a person would be in purgatory.

Why is that intermediate stage Needed. Because Jesus Christ has already taken care of everything that Needs to be done.
When a person accepts Jesus Christ as personal Savior -- their sins are taken care of. His giving His life In Our Place and His bodily resurrection has taken care of that. All a person Needs to do is accept that gift and say thank you for it. And we Are held accountable for what we do with our lives as Christians -- but none of Those actions determines our salvation being kept or lost.

Ameliorated ? Forgiven by God After the fact? I guess he was free to pray whatever He wanted to -- but that doesn't mean that prayer was Answered. I can't pray for anyone elses sins to be forgiven. I Can pray that other people would come to knowledge of their sins Needing forgiveness. In fact we probably Should be praying that way for others. But that person Still needs to come to Christ on his/ her own to ask forgiveness.

I find it strange that on the one hand you can disagree with so much that I say, but on the other, spend so much time asking what I think. If you don't understand somebody's point of view, how can you disagree with it? - Blind prejudice?

Anyway. Judas Maccabaeus prayed that the sins of the dead could be ameliorated. So do most Christians. Enough said. You think you "can't pray for anyone else's sins to be forgiven"? Well, bad luck. I most certainly can.

I don't really understand what you want to know, if anything. You asked where the doctrine of purgatory could be found, and I explained it quite simply. You may disagree with it, if you understand it; and you may interpret the bible as you wish - but you may not deny me, and my fellow Catholics, the right to interpret it our way either, without some other authority than your own personal version.

Forgive me for jumping in..

Hugh? Purgatory, are you saying its kinda like a spiritual state, perhaps with Christ, getting closer to him, before ressurection into our physical bodies?

Storyteller wrote:Forgive me for jumping in..

Hugh? Purgatory, are you saying its kinda like a spiritual state, perhaps with Christ, getting closer to him, before Resurrection into our physical bodies?

Something like that, yes. To be honest, I think it's quite a complex philosophical idea, and not one I'm really familiar with, but it makes some kind of sense. Is there anybody on this site, except crotchet, who doesn't recite that prayer for the dead? What do they think it means?

What prayer?

hughfarey wrote:

Storyteller wrote:Forgive me for jumping in..

Hugh? Purgatory, are you saying its kinda like a spiritual state, perhaps with Christ, getting closer to him, before Resurrection into our physical bodies?

Something like that, yes. To be honest, I think it's quite a complex philosophical idea, and not one I'm really familiar with, but it makes some kind of sense. Is there anybody on this site, except crotchet, who doesn't recite that prayer for the dead? What do they think it means?

The only prayers I pray for the dead, are for those who are spiritually dead.

"Doctrine of Purgatory Extinguished by Grace": http://www.contenderministries.org/Cath ... atory2.php

Storyteller wrote:What prayer?

R.I.P.

hughfarey wrote:I find it strange that on the one hand you can disagree with so much that I say, but on the other, spend so much time asking what I think. If you don't understand somebody's point of view, how can you disagree with it? - Blind prejudice?

Anyway. Judas Maccabaeus prayed that the sins of the dead could be ameliorated. So do most Christians. Enough said. You think you "can't pray for anyone else's sins to be forgiven"? Well, bad luck. I most certainly can.

I don't really understand what you want to know, if anything. You asked where the doctrine of purgatory could be found, and I explained it quite simply. You may disagree with it, if you understand it; and you may interpret the bible as you wish - but you may not deny me, and my fellow Catholics, the right to interpret it our way either, without some other authority than your own personal version.

I'm simply asking your Biblical basis for your church practices.

The concept of purgatory suggests that God's grace Isn't sufficient to take care of All our sins. His Word says it Is. I'd think that would be a GOOD thing to know.

crochet1949 wrote:The concept of purgatory suggests that God's grace Isn't sufficient to take care of All our sins. His Word says it Is. I'd think that would be a GOOD thing to know.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Consider the idea that purgatory could be voluntary. If I were told that the Queen and her Family were coming up the path right now to invest me as a Knight of the Order of the Garter (choose whatever honour you like appropriate to the story), I would beg for a few moments to change my work overalls, maybe have a quick shower, pick up some of the papers on the floor, that sort of thing. It wouldn't change the investiture, but it would make me feel better.

crochet1949 wrote:

hughfarey wrote:I find it strange that on the one hand you can disagree with so much that I say, but on the other, spend so much time asking what I think. If you don't understand somebody's point of view, how can you disagree with it? - Blind prejudice?

Anyway. Judas Maccabaeus prayed that the sins of the dead could be ameliorated. So do most Christians. Enough said. You think you "can't pray for anyone else's sins to be forgiven"? Well, bad luck. I most certainly can.

I don't really understand what you want to know, if anything. You asked where the doctrine of purgatory could be found, and I explained it quite simply. You may disagree with it, if you understand it; and you may interpret the bible as you wish - but you may not deny me, and my fellow Catholics, the right to interpret it our way either, without some other authority than your own personal version.

I'm simply asking your Biblical basis for your church practices.

The concept of purgatory suggests that God's grace Isn't sufficient to take care of All our sins. His Word says it Is. I'd think that would be a GOOD thing to know.

Let me ask you this then, do you believe as Christians we undergo temporal punishment due to our sins? If yes (and I certainly hope your answer is affirmative), then why do you believe God's grace was not sufficient enough to take care of that?

Let me ask you this then, do you believe as Christians we undergo temporal punishment due to our sins? If yes (and I certainly hope your answer is affirmative), then why do you believe God's grace was not sufficient enough to take care of that?

He Has taken care of the results of our sin, death. If anything can be related to purgatory, it's our world. He has never negated the nature of reality. Cause and effect. We are incapable of being sinless until we have our new bodies, that's part of the nature of reality. Does Jesus have to die again if we sin again after believing in Him?

Thank God we've stopped talking about that horrid Ark Encounter.