Evidence for God from Science

jpbg33 wrote:I had rether not say where im from

Y'all do not accept that silvation is a free gift and the whole consept of it being a free gift means you can give it back. It is not God taking it back but you giving it back.

My church believes it is a sin to try and teach someone how to speak in tongues.

If it was not from God it was the Holy Ghost.

Tongues is the initial evidence of being filled the gifts come next. You will not find anyone being fill with the Holy Ghost in the bible that did not speak with tongues. That was what Jesus was talking about when he said that tonges would follow them that believe.

These false religion that are out there are there because people do not wont to believe in Jesus but they still wont to go to heaven but it doesn't work that way.

That verse says that God is not leaving us but it is us that is leaving God.

It says that we are to let it remain in us and if we do not let it remain in us then we are no longer in the Son.

That verese was a warning not to turn away from God. Because if you do you loose your salvation.

To say different means you do not know how to read English.

The concept of receiving a free gift and being able to give it back -- WHY would a person want to give a gift Back to it's giver. It would be something like -- parents who put Christmas presents under the tree -- a person picks up the gift meant for them -- but Then deciding they don't want it After all and putting it back under the tree. Or upon opening the gift -- they decide they don't want it After all and give it back. WHY would anyone do that. AND -- Why would anyone Want to give back the inner peace that salvation gives them. Why would a born-again believer Want to be able to get ride of the Holy Spirit who is indwelling them? Part of what the indwelling Holy Spirit does is to seal us until we are with Jesus Christ for eternity. Why would a person Not want That spiritual security?
There's the verse that says that Nothing can separate us from the love of God. And it lists all conceivable situations.
And somewhere in the book of John it says that Jesus goes after the 'one' sheep that manages to stray away from the flock.
He knows who are His and Won't loose any of them. And John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that who so ever believeth in Him, will Not perish but have Everlasting/ eternal life.

jpbg33 wrote:I had rether not say where im from

Y'all do not accept that silvation is a free gift and the whole consept of it being a free gift means you can give it back. It is not God taking it back but you giving it back.

My church believes it is a sin to try and teach someone how to speak in tongues.

If it was not from God it was the Holy Ghost.

Tongues is the initial evidence of being filled the gifts come next. You will not find anyone being fill with the Holy Ghost in the bible that did not speak with tongues. That was what Jesus was talking about when he said that tonges would follow them that believe.

These false religion that are out there are there because people do not wont to believe in Jesus but they still wont to go to heaven but it doesn't work that way.

That verse says that God is not leaving us but it is us that is leaving God.

It says that we are to let it remain in us and if we do not let it remain in us then we are no longer in the Son.

That verese was a warning not to turn away from God. Because if you do you loose your salvation.

To say different means you do not know how to read English.

So you have a mix of traditional AG doctrines and new...

The terms

God the Holy Spirit is correct

God the Son is correct

God the Father is correct

That is basic Christian orthodox doctrine of the Trinity and I assume the AG you attend hold too the Christian orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, correct?

Therefore is the gift of languages ie tongues is from God or not?

Lastly, Jesus said in John 10 that none is able to snatch out of the His hand or the Father's Hand and part of the none is the person who would be termed by you as jumping out. This means, the jumper can't escape the other of of the Lord that will catch him. Suggest you check out they meaning of the Greek text:

John 10:28-30, "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one." NKJV

Please do not confuse someone having a crisis of faith and one who was never saved to begin with but only hangs out in church due to family ties...or playing games...
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crochet1949 people give gift back all the time at Christmas. It is embarrassing when it happens but it does happen.

The reason someone would give back the gift of God is because of there own lust.

B. W. you are reading in "yourself" in that verse because you wont to use that verse in your argument, but it is not in that verse because salvation is a free gift not a mouse trap. If you put "yourself in that verse then you cause the bible to contradict it self. because 1 John 2:24-25 says you can lose it and that is the only way to read it. If you add something into a verse that makes conflicts in the bible then you are wrong. That verse was letting people know that there is no one that could make you lose out with God. It was not referring to you leaving God.

If I told someone that no one nor and thing could take them out of what ever building we were in I would not be meaning that I would not let them walk out unless I was trying to trap them in and God is not trying to trap anyone.

Saying someone needs to read a verse in Greek to get the real meaning is a cop out. The reason they did not put "yourself" in that verse is because it makes verses conflict if you do that. So the meaning they knew was right was with out "yourself".

Using different meanings of words you can make verses say almost any thing you wont them to, but if you make verses conflict with each other you are dead wrong in you interpretation.

1Jn 2:24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 
1Jn 2:25  And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 


How you are reading the verse you are using you are making the gift of salvation out to be a trap not a gift.

How on earth you can make the gift of salvation out to be a trap and not a gift is beyond me. You are referring to John 10 passage. It IS saying that a believer is Secure in Christ. It's eternal security.
A 'trap' is something Negative - it's usual useage is referring to snaring an animal that is a nuisance. To hold an animal or person Against it's will. It's Not providing a safe haven.
I find myself feeling a bit sorry for you and your interpretation of Scripture. Why a group of believers would pursue such a negative view of Scripture is beyond me.
You Do tend to pick various verses that Are definitely Scripture and apply them in ways not intended.

Funny, but Scripture NEVER mentions TEMPORARY ETERNAL life - an oxymoron. And the gift is SALVATION - which gives GIFT of ETERNAL life. Scripture does reference people, like those in crowd in Jerusalem, who initially desired to follow Jesus, but just like Judas, NEVER truly had faith in their hearts and minds for him - they only wanted what they desired he DO for them - and mostly carnal things. So, with such people, NOTHING is given back, because they never HAD it to begin with.

Here's the other question: Did God somehow make a mistake? Did He, from eternity past, know precisely who He would save and that their names were listed in the Book of Life from before humanity was ever created - or NOT? Does God save people knowing that it "won't take" - that they will ultimately deny and reject Him? Does that even make sense?

Again, how could the Apostle Paul have declared? "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." How could Paul have had such CONFIDENCE if he also knew that people might well "give back" their gifts of salvation? Was that gift only TEMPORARY life? Jpbg, your view would mean that God made mistakes in saving people that His great power and love would be insufficient to overcome their own terrible impulses - and we're speaking of supposedly AFTER they were saved. That makes no sense at all. Scripture says that it is GOD who WILL bring it (one's salvation) to completion. Clearly, you also believe that, ultimately, your salvation is up to your puny human ability to sustain it until your dying breath - so you obviously don't know that you will ultimately be saved - believing THAT! So, YOU, a man, have the ability to CONTINUE overcoming your sin - which God said you NEVER had to begin with? ALL sin - including the possible sin of rejection???!!!

Jpbg, you don't know that you are and will REMAINED saved - that much is clear! You must believe, on God's ledger book, you are only written down as "temporary / POTENTIALLY" saved. How sad to believe that!

crochet1949 actually that is what you are doing.

The bible does not say you can not leave God.

I'm not calling salvation a trap you are by saying once you are saved then there is nothing you can do but be saved.

I am saying that it is a gift from God and as a true gift you can give it back.

You are the one using Scripture and adding to them and apply them in ways not intended not me.

I am taking scriptures as they are.

The bible simply does not say what y'all are saying.

there are people out there thinking that they can not lose there salvation because of y'all's false religion and they are trying to unbaptize them self's so that they can serve the devil. Once saved always saved is just a fake trap. the bible does not teach that.

All osas does is blind the eyes of people to the fact that they are not saved. That is horrible that you would do that to other people.

Philip you are mistaken. Paul said if you hold fast to the end and that he him self if he was not carful would be a cast away. He also said he had not yet achieved. Paul did not believe osas at all. the bible simply does not teach that. John 3:16 say that if you believe in God when you die you will not parish but live for ever that is paraphrased but that is what it says. it is not saying that when you get saved you will go to heaven no matter what. That is non sense. It is clearly talking about someone believing in God when they die.


The biggest argument against osas is that if osas was true then the bible lies.

Philip without miss reading these verses, if osas was true then why would this verse be in the bible warning us to not lose our salvation. If we couldn't lose it in the first place.


1Jn 2:24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 
1Jn 2:25  And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 

Jpbg - how do you KNOW such people were ever truly saved to begin with? Because they said some prayer? Because they said so? Cause they go to church? Have you ever considered the fact that such people are merely fair-weather wannabees - who never truly committed their hearts in faith to Christ? There's a difference between being a follower - per the masses in Jerusalem - and in those being committed in one's heart and mind, placing their faith in Christ. Satan well believes in God the Father/Jesus the Son/ the Holy Spirit - he even spent some length of time in heaven amongst God's heavenly host, which is precisely where he was when his heart turned against God and determined himself to reject and lead a rebellion. Physical proximity of God or putting up a mere facade and talking of faith isn't truly having FAITH! And so THESE are the types who have fallen away - they never had a saving faith to begin with. The problem is not that they lose their salvation!

I know they were saved just as much as you and I know if you are. Salvation is not a trap like y'all say it is. Y'all's way of thinking is not biblically based.

The crazy thing about osas you can not tell me if either you or them were ever really saved.

The bible say we can know we are saved and it tells us how we know we are saved.

I do not believe it is of my self that I overcome the world but it is through the power of God that I overcome the world.

It is not what I do but what God does through me.

Jpbg: The bible say we can know we are saved and it tells us how we know we are saved.

Huh???!!!

This is true, but you apparently don't believe it! Because you just asserted that on can lose one's salvation - and, IF that were true, it also means YOU could still very well lose it, according to your personal belief. So you don't KNOW you will make it to Heaven, because there is still a very good chance you will not persevere to your dying breath! Either one KNOWS or one can't know. If you insist one can lose their salvation, and as you don't know the future, you would have absolutely no ideas as to weather or not you would maintain your faith, and thus your salvation. But Scripture says "HE that began a good work in you will carry it to COMPLETION" - and not YOU! You're ignoring this!

I am not ignoring that what I am saying is that I know if I am saved right now because of what the bible say you do not know right now if you are or not. If you do then tell me how you know. the bible tells us how we know so it shouldn't be hard far you to tell me how you know if you are indeed saved.

Jpbg: what I am saying is that I know if I am saved right now

So, you are admitting you have NO way of knowing if you will be in Heaven - that is - UNLESS you can peer into the future and see that you have kept your faith to your last breath. Otherwise, according to your belief, you can't know that you'll see Heaven. Correct?

I do not know the future so it is possible that in the future I could backslide. I am not God so I could fall short, but I do not intend to like the bible says I have this blessed hope. That doesn't mean I do not know that I ma saved right now. Like Paul I to could become a cast away. What does the bible say? When you have done all to stand stand there for. What I guess you think it should say is when you have done all to stand give up because it doesn't matter you will make it any ways.

Well -- we Should be living every day in a Godly way of life. Not because we're Afraid that if we Don't -- we're Doomed. But because there is a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ that we desire to have. We spend time with someone because we Want to -- not out of concern that if we Don't we'll be in Trouble.

The 'future' happens one day at a time. That which we do today affects tomorrow. And no one is really guaranteed 'tomorrow' we simply assume we'll wake up again like we did This morning.

I am not saying I am afraid of anything I am saying that like Paul I could be a cast away in the future.