Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:06 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:42 am

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:38 pm

PaulS wrote:
Yes, of course, BUT Paul doesn't say NOT to observe the Sabbath, as in Romans, Paul states that it is up to the individual to decide WHY they choose to observe ( or not) on day above another.
As long as they are doing it FOR GOD either way.

But paul does say not to observe the sabbath.
Colossians 2:16-17

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Paul was speaking of the false teachers who were judging the Colossians, because the false teachers wanted the Colossians to live as Jews, obeying the OT law.

In verse 17, Paul says that those things listed in verse 16, including the sabbath, are a mere shadow of what is to come. And the substance belongs to Christ.

Again, Paul specifically calls the Sabbath, a shadow of Christ. Which isn't binding, since Christ has come. The shadow pointed to Christ. If anyone observes the shadow, he is denying that Christ is come.

Where does Paul say that observing the sabbath is denying Christ?

I don't know if he says it or doesn't say it. I wasn't claiming that he did say it.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

IMO, wether a person choose to observe the sabbath ( or ANY special day) or NOT is up to the indovidual AS LONG as his/her decisions is base don faith in Christ and are doing it FOR Christ.
And I think that Paul's writings echos this.

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:29 am

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:06 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:42 am

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:38 pm

PaulS wrote:
Yes, of course, BUT Paul doesn't say NOT to observe the Sabbath, as in Romans, Paul states that it is up to the individual to decide WHY they choose to observe ( or not) on day above another.
As long as they are doing it FOR GOD either way.

But paul does say not to observe the sabbath.
Colossians 2:16-17

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Paul was speaking of the false teachers who were judging the Colossians, because the false teachers wanted the Colossians to live as Jews, obeying the OT law.

In verse 17, Paul says that those things listed in verse 16, including the sabbath, are a mere shadow of what is to come. And the substance belongs to Christ.

Again, Paul specifically calls the Sabbath, a shadow of Christ. Which isn't binding, since Christ has come. The shadow pointed to Christ. If anyone observes the shadow, he is denying that Christ is come.

Where does Paul say that observing the sabbath is denying Christ?

I don't know if he says it or doesn't say it. I wasn't claiming that he did say it.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

IMO, wether a person choose to observe the sabbath ( or ANY special day) or NOT is up to the indovidual AS LONG as his/her decisions is base don faith in Christ and are doing it FOR Christ.
And I think that Paul's writings echos this.

And I'm saying that goes completely against Paul's writings, which say that believers should not follow OT law, which includes observing the sabbath. Paul seems pretty clear that we are under grace, and not under the law.

Some thoughts...

Let me use "Do not murder" as an example...
Is the law "Do not murder" applicable to Christians today?
The answer is a resounding yes

Is the law "Do not murder" applicable because it is one of the 10 Commandments?
The answer is no.
As Rick points out the Old Covenant (including the 10 Commandments) has become 'obsolete' and has been replaced by the New Covenant.

So why is the law "Do not murder" still applicable?
Because it is part of God's 'moral law' that transcends the Old Covenant.
"Do not murder" was applicable before the Old Covenant, it was part of the Old Covenant, and it is now part of the law written on our hearts under the New Covenant.

Is keeping the law "Do not murder" that is written on our hearts under the New Covenant in any way meritorious?
The answer is no.
We are saved by grace through faith, not by works.
So under the New Covenant we don't have to memorize a bunch of laws and worry about whether we are good enough for God.
We need to accept God's grace and then...
Love God and love each other.

If I have a heart attitude of "love for God" and "love for each other" then I won't even have the heart attitude of hatred that leads to murder.
As a follower of Jesus, Jesus wants my focus to be on my heart attitudes (Mat 5)

That is the foundation of all of God's moral law
Before the Old Covenant
During the Old Covenant
And now under the New Covenant.

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:12 pm Some thoughts...

Let me use "Do not murder" as an example...
Is the law "Do not murder" applicable to Christians today?
The answer is a resounding yes

Is the law "Do not murder" applicable because it is one of the 10 Commandments?
The answer is no.
As Rick points out the Old Covenant (including the 10 Commandments) has become 'obsolete' and has been replaced by the New Covenant.

So why is the law "Do not murder" still applicable?
Because it is part of God's 'moral law' that transcends the Old Covenant.
"Do not murder" was applicable before the Old Covenant, it was part of the Old Covenant, and it is now part of the law written on our hearts under the New Covenant.

Is keeping the law "Do not murder" that is written on our hearts under the New Covenant in any way meritorious?
The answer is no.
We are saved by grace through faith, not by works.
So under the New Covenant we don't have to memorize a bunch of laws and worry about whether we are good enough for God.
We need to accept God's grace and then...
Love God and love each other.

If I have a heart attitude of "love for God" and "love for each other" then I won't even have the heart attitude of hatred that leads to murder.
As a follower of Jesus, Jesus wants my focus to be on my heart attitudes (Mat 5)

That is the foundation of all of God's moral law
Before the Old Covenant
During the Old Covenant
And now under the New Covenant.

With the exception of the part I crossed out in your post, I completely agree. And the only reason I disagree with the part I crossed out, is because the new law, "Love God, and love your neighbor", has made the law, "thou shalt not murder" obsolete. That doesn't meant that it's ok to murder now. Murder is and has always been wrong, even before OT law.

I hope that clears up what I'm trying to say.

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:52 am I think the issue with following or not following the 10 commandments is a simple one"
The Sabbath.
It comes down to that.
Why? Will because no other commandment has, according to some ( Paul for example), been made obsolete and what I mean is this:
Nowhere will you find that we are no longer to:

You shall have no other gods before Me. - This still applies
You shall make no idols. - This still applies
You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - This still applies

Keep the Sabbath day holy. - HERE is the one that is controversial to some.

Honor your father and your mother. - Still applies
You shall not murder. - Still Applies
You shall not commit adultery. - Still Applies
You shall not steal. - Still Applies
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Still Applies
You shall not covet. - Still applies.


Lets be honest here, the issue is the Sabbath.

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:08 am I'm not sure who this is for. I'm not arguing against worshipping on any specific day of the week. I'm specifically talking about observing the OT sabbath laws.

Hello all...

I'm just finding that this thread is STILL going...that is hilarious for the subject being something that is "clearly" done away with.

I'm finding the wording of the above interesting because RickD, Hello Rick , has clarified what his contention is here on the Sabbath.

It is on the OT sabbath laws. Well, as somewhat well-versed christians, we all know those laws as being the 600+ laws the Israelites created themselves...or Moses helped them create.

I'm in agreement with RickD. We don't hold to those OT laws...HOWEVER as Christians we should, IMHO, hold to God's Law...and it only has ONE Sabbath command. Too keep it. ( albeit as best a sinner can )

Everyone here seems to agree that we uphold 9 of the 10: which is interesting because the 10 are summed up in 'x'...but we are never told the 10 are now 9 and the 9 are summed as 'x'.

It's just funny to me how we play games by excluding a Law because it seems that God directed that one to a certain group of people...then in the same breath hail Jesus Christ as our Savior...him being of that same group of people...then in another breath, claim to be of the people "grafted into" the Vine and "his people". Yet "we" want nothing to do with them, therefore Him. That's sad.

Anyway, it's been a while and I happened to come back in to see the happenings. Politics is out...yet I see religious politics is still alive and well.

God bless and continue to bless you all. . Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Hey Bav,

Good to see you back.

Hope you and yours have a Merry Christmas!!!

Ee have historical proof Christians worship or Sunday and that Jesus repeated all but one commandant(Sabbath). We also have the fact lord's day which is Sunday is mentioned in the bible. Another issue is that has gentiles they were not required to keep the same laws as the jewish people. It's shown in the OT. Christians are gentiles.