Evidence for God from Science

Hi KBC.

KBC wrote:
In my understanding on this point that we are supposed to have the intent to turn from sinning when we accept Christ otherwise what would be the purpose of the indwelling HS?

RickD wrote:
KBC,Yes, when we accept Christ, we are saved. Period.

Ok then there is nothing a believer can do once we accept Christ to lose the free gift of salvation?

KBC,
My belief is that once someone is saved, he cannot lose his salvation. Period. One may lose heavenly rewards, but not salvation. Others do disagree, and I understand that.

RickD wrote:Then the process of sanctification begins. As God sanctifies a believer, the believer will naturally(in the spirit) turn from sin. But, the sinful nature is still there, fighting with the new creature(spiritual nature). See Galatians 5:17:For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

KBC wrote:
We are absolutely not required to 'perform' in any specific manner past that point. God will essentially mold our desires and actions for us independant of our own free will.

As far as salvation is concerned, yes. That is correct. But, I'm not advocating a believer's walk with God exempts free will, and choices we make.
Once one is saved by faith in Christ, one is sealed by the HS as a guarantee that God's promise of salvation is true. Just like a sort of "down payment" from God, letting the believer know that his salvation is secure.

I definitely can understand discipline but...
Discipline is an action taken to cause a change in behavior within the one receiving it. So what happens if the recipient persistently refuses to alter their behavior? Do you feel that God will change your persistant refusal into acceptance thus overriding your free will?

Absolutely not! Believers haven't turned into marionettes controlled by God.

RickD wrote:KBC, let's take #1 first: I believe one is saved at the moment one places his faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation is a free gift to all who believe. See John 3:14-16: "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. When one believes in Christ, one is now part of God's family. Salvation is assured. The "process" for salvation is belief in Jesus Christ. Notice the text doesn't say, "whoever believes in Him(and stops sinning)..."



Ok so your understanding and belief is the first choice then.

RickD wrote:Now #2: I would agree that a believer grows as a believer, by "participation". By praying, reading the bible, etc. Since salvation happens at the moment one places his faith in Christ, then "participation" as you say, happens after salvation, and during sanctification.
I think I'm seeing that you think salvation is a lifelong process. Whereas I'm saying salvation is a one time deal, and sanctification is a lifelong process.
I hope that clears up what I believe, if I explained it properly.

Rick if your choice is the first statement then you cannot also choose the second as well. By choosiing the first you are saying essentially that no action on the part of the believer can ever change the fact that they are saved. Thus no matter whether we 'learn' anything or actively participate it has no consequence past the point of initial belief. From your post I am comprehending that in such a case as the believer is persistent in no learning or participating then God will simply bypass our free will and make us conform to his will.

KBC, I thought I was clear that I didn't agree with either as you had presented them. That's why I explained what I believed about each.

My perception of salvation is that it is an instant occurance. My perception of sanctification is that it is a lifelong process. However, my perception of whether salvation can be lost once gained is that it is possible to fall away. Essentially, by your free will you can take yourself out by not learning and accepting the discipline being given. I also understand that God will not override our free will because free will was also a freely given aspect of our being, it is Gods desire that our gifts to him come from our own free will to give it.

KBC, I also believe a believer can fall away. I just don't believe he can fall away to the point of losing his salvation. To me it's not a matter of God taking away our free will. It's just that once we are saved, we listen to God's voice. Just like the sheep know and listen to their shepherd's voice.

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

And when one sheep goes astray, the Good Shepherd does everything He can to bring him back.

So for me I would understand our relationship with God to work like this... We initially learn about him and his ways from the bible and then if we have a desire to exist in a relationship with him then we declare our love by following the initial demand to accept Christ and his sacrifice so that we may become closer to God at which point we move forward learning about him through the HS and with a willingness to listen and apply his teaching we grow closer to the point where we can by the power of Christ offer the sacrifice of ourselves for God to directly dwell within us.
For now this understanding seems to make the most sense. Is it right?

KBC, I can't answer if it's "right". It may be the way God is working with you. God knows you better than anyone, and He knows how to reach you so you will come to Him.

KBCid wrote: 1) The free gift of salvation is entirely dependant on faith in Christ and has no dependancy on our active participation in the process.
2) The free gift of salvation is dependant on both faith in Christ 'AND' a dependancy on our active participation in becoming righteous.

Gman wrote: Ok, it sound's better.. But I would still rephrase it. I like 2.

2) The free gift of salvation 'IS' faith in Christ 'WHICH' is also participation of becoming righteous in Him. [/quote]

I am doing my very best to not misrepresent anyone so by defining in words how we understand something it becomes easier for each of us to avoid talking past each other in meanings. Now the way you have reworded it leads me to the conclusion that our input is required as a means to prevent the loss of salvation which is inline with my understanding that we can't by works gain salvation but that we can by works lose it. If this is incorrect pls. see if there is a further revision that can convey your position better.

Gman wrote:And even that I wouldn't necessarily say is dependent on salvation, meaning a continual participation in G-d's law for salvation. However, one could argue for the storing up of crowns of righteousness. And part of that participation of faith is also repenting.
Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

This is definitely a sticky point for any believer to discuss because it addresses the possible exitence of requirements beyond a simple belief having an effect on salvation. So if you feel that our input in the process only deals with additional rewards beyond salvation then in fact your position would have to be position 1 because in position one nothing beyond belief alone without any action on the part of the believer is sufficient to receive the free gift of salvation 'and' once saved always saved since there would be no dependancy on our actions. For me this point is absolutely black and white.
Actions count or actions don't, it is impossible to have both an irresistable force and a immovable object at the same time within reality.

RickD wrote:KBC,Yes, when we accept Christ, we are saved. Period.
My belief is that once someone is saved, he cannot lose his salvation. Period. One may lose heavenly rewards, but not salvation. Others do disagree, and I understand that.

Ok then I have properly defined your position on these points and I have recorded these in reference to you. I will likely add reference points from scripture that you may apply as your foundation for backing on these points in the future.

RickD wrote:Then the process of sanctification begins. As God sanctifies a believer, the believer will naturally(in the spirit) turn from sin. But, the sinful nature is still there, fighting with the new creature(spiritual nature). See Galatians 5:17:For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

KBCid wrote:We are absolutely not required to 'perform' in any specific manner past that point. God will essentially mold our desires and actions for us independant of our own free will.

RickD wrote:As far as salvation is concerned, yes. That is correct. But, I'm not advocating a believer's walk with God exempts free will, and choices we make. Once one is saved by faith in Christ, one is sealed by the HS as a guarantee that God's promise of salvation is true. Just like a sort of "down payment" from God, letting the believer know that his salvation is secure.

Since the meat of this discussion is centered on 'salvation' issues then anything you may believe past the point of relevance to salvation is not something I will reference to. So as I noted above I am simply recording your position on this specific point.

KBCid wrote:I definitely can understand discipline but...
Discipline is an action taken to cause a change in behavior within the one receiving it. So what happens if the recipient persistently refuses to alter their behavior? Do you feel that God will change your persistant refusal into acceptance thus overriding your free will?

RickD wrote:Absolutely not! Believers haven't turned into marionettes controlled by God.

Ok then you position according to my understanding is that God will not override our free will and I will note it this way unless you respond that I have erred in understanding here.

RickD wrote:KBC, let's take #1 first: I believe one is saved at the moment one places his faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation is a free gift to all who believe. See John 3:14-16: "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. When one believes in Christ, one is now part of God's family. Salvation is assured. The "process" for salvation is belief in Jesus Christ. Notice the text doesn't say, "whoever believes in Him(and stops sinning)..."

KBCid wrote:Ok so your understanding and belief is the first choice then.

RickD wrote:KBC, I thought I was clear that I didn't agree with either as you had presented them. That's why I explained what I believed about each.

Ok then let me review and see where you have defined a difference from position 1 as it was stated;
1) The free gift of salvation is entirely dependant on faith in Christ and has no dependancy on our active participation in the process.

To whhich you replied;

RickD wrote:KBC, let's take #1 first: I believe one is saved at the moment one places his faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation is a free gift to all who believe. See John 3:14-16: "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. When one believes in Christ, one is now part of God's family. Salvation is assured. The "process" for salvation is belief in Jesus Christ. Notice the text doesn't say, "whoever believes in Him(and stops sinning)..."

Ok I am not seeing how your statement is different than the position sentence one conveys. You have stated specifically that "When one believes in Christ, one is now part of God's family. Salvation is assured" thus, to me this is saying exactly that "The free gift of salvation is entirely dependant on faith in Christ". So if there is a variation it must be contained within the second part of the sentence dealing with "has no dependancy on our active participation in the process." and from what I have read so far you have asserted a number of times that action or works has no relevance to salvation. so if you could pls. clarify where I am missing your intent as this would be appreciated and I can properly record this for my reference.

Wolfgang wrote:Matthew 7:23: "....... I NEVER EVER knew you: depart from Me, you who violate the torah!" --- exeGeses Companion Bible.

I hate to say it and don't want to say it, but that verse almost shouts that salvation is not just a little bit, but is extremely dependent on obedience. That is so simple to understand that you would need someone else to help you misunderstand that.

Fine, then as Christ said in Matt. 7:1,2 that is the measure you will be judged by.
If you believe the Gospel is faith plus your obedience, then I assure you, that is exactly how God will judge you. Because you have rejected His offer of full pardon and and mercy through his grace. There is no question what that Jesus said this in Matt. 7:23. So, also following this same context, are you obedient in word, thought and deed? Please tell us. Or, do you fall short of the glorious standard like the rest of us?

The question is whether this is the message and word you are supposed to hear and trust in for your salvation. Of course, if we follow this rotten exegesis then we create conflicts with so many other areas of scripture. Rom. 3:28, Acts 13:39, and Gal. 2:16 immediately jumps to mind. Yet, you are saying that by the works of the law man is justified. And man's obedience to the law is absolutely essential to justification. So, by your exgesis, one can only conclude that either Paul is a false prophet or you are. "If any man preach any other gospel to you than that you have received, let him be accursed." (Gal. 1:9) Repent (reject any thought) that you can contribute to your salvation in any way. Trust in Christ alone and be free.
Jesus picked Paul to preach this Gospel for us today. Why would you return to a message for Israel and place a burden on yourself you cannont bear?

KBCid wrote:Ok I am not seeing how your statement is different than the position sentence one conveys. You have stated specifically that "When one believes in Christ, one is now part of God's family. Salvation is assured" thus, to me this is saying exactly that "The free gift of salvation is entirely dependant on faith in Christ". So if there is a variation it must be contained within the second part of the sentence dealing with "has no dependancy on our active participation in the process." and from what I have read so far you have asserted a number of times that action or works has no relevance to salvation. so if you could pls. clarify where I am missing your intent as this would be appreciated and I can properly record this for my reference.

I would refer you to Romans 4:5
Is faith a work? Paul says, “However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.” (Rom. 4:5) Here, faith is not only defined (trust), but is presented as the antithesis of working. Any boasting is excluded by faith. (Rom. 3:37) Also, this explains that a sinner (the ungodly), by trusting God, may have righteousness credited to their account. It presents faith as the responsibility of man and justification as solely the work of God. Following Paul’s teaching here, it is hard to see how faith follows regeneration, since faith is presented as the means by which one appropriates the righteousness made available through the finished work of Christ. Thus, it would seem contradictory to consider one regenerated without yet being made righteous.
You question is flawed. It presumes a contingency where there is none. One's receiving salvation is contingent on belief. The act and work of salvation is soley the doing of God. The Gospel is not something to do, but something to be believed. That is why it is to be preached.

KBC wrote:
Ok I am not seeing how your statement is different than the position sentence one conveys. You have stated specifically that "When one believes in Christ, one is now part of God's family. Salvation is assured" thus, to me this is saying exactly that "The free gift of salvation is entirely dependant on faith in Christ". So if there is a variation it must be contained within the second part of the sentence dealing with "has no dependancy on our active participation in the process." and from what I have read so far you have asserted a number of times that action or works has no relevance to salvation. so if you could pls. clarify where I am missing your intent as this would be appreciated and I can properly record this for my reference.

KBC, if you assert the first part, "The free gift of salvation is entirely dependant on faith in Christ", and end it there, I agree. But when you add "has no dependancy on our active participation in the process", I disagree.

There is no active participation with salvation. Faith in Christ is all the "participation" one needs. If one can't gain salvation by works, how can one lose salvation by lack of works?

Understand?

KBC wrote:
Since the meat of this discussion is centered on 'salvation' issues then anything you may believe past the point of relevance to salvation is not something I will reference to. So as I noted above I am simply recording your position on this specific point.

KBC, this topic is about if we are required to follow Mosaic law. If one believes following the law is not required to gain salvation, but following the law is required to keep salvation, then the error is just as bad, IMO.

Ok then you position according to my understanding is that God will not override our free will and I will note it this way unless you respond that I have erred in understanding here.

As far as the way a believer lives, then I agree. But, I also believe that one can't "give back" one's salvation, as others assert. I'm not saying that God makes a believer keep his salvation, overriding one's free will. But, I'm saying once one is saved, one's free will will align with God's will.

RickD wrote:KBC, if you assert the first part, "The free gift of salvation is entirely dependant on faith in Christ", and end it there, I agree. But when you add "has no dependancy on our active participation in the process", I disagree.
There is no active participation with salvation. Faith in Christ is all the "participation" one needs. If one can't gain salvation by works, how can one lose salvation by lack of works? Understand?

No.
you cannot have both a dependancy on active participation (which is works / obedience) and at the same time no dependancy . Both are not possible to be true at the same time.

KBC wrote:
Since the meat of this discussion is centered on 'salvation' issues then anything you may believe past the point of relevance to salvation is not something I will reference to. So as I noted above I am simply recording your position on this specific point..

RickD wrote:KBC, this topic is about if we are required to follow Mosaic law. If one believes following the law is not required to gain salvation, but following the law is required to keep salvation, then the error is just as bad, IMO.

obeying commandments or works or participation as i am intending active participation to be used in position one is either required actions on the part of a believer or it is not and such performance either has an effect on salvation or it does not and you are plainly stating in this sentence that such actions are not required nor affects salvation. So I don't see any difference to the meaning intended by me in position one and what you are stating. I am clearly defining participation as works or obeyance relative to commandment keeping as defined by the thread for following mosaic laws. So even if you have a different accepted definition of active participation the fact is that I am defining the range of meaning I have intended it to apply to in respect to the thread topic. So if you agree that works has no affect on salvation then you are satisfying the requirements of the range of meaning I am intending to convey as active participation in position one.

Ok then your position according to my understanding is that God will not override our free will and I will note it this way unless you respond that I have erred in understanding here..

RickD wrote:As far as the way a believer lives, then I agree. But, I also believe that one can't "give back" one's salvation, as others assert. I'm not saying that God makes a believer keep his salvation, overriding one's free will. But, I'm saying once one is saved, one's free will will align with God's will.

If such were true about a belivevers free will aligning with God's will then every believer would be of one body and one belief and surely we can all clearly see that there are many who profess a belief in Christ but hold major foundational differences in their beliefs. So minimally one denomination or sect is not saved and in posession of the HS guiding their understanding since God does not cause chaos. It is one message one people one nation under God.
Believe me Rick I have talked with a number of 'believers' whose message is just as sincere as anyones here and they are convinced that their foundational beliefs are the 'ONLY' correct way of understanding the biblical message and I cannot judge their POV without looking at all sides.
I stand outside of belief on these points looking in and trying to determine which understanding has the correct division of Gods word and I cannot base correctness on the sincerity of the believer. I must initially treat all as possibly right and equally as possibly wrong.
So if I cannot correctly define your position relevant to my understanding then we will always be speaking past each other and I cannot properly reference your belief in conjunction with specific scriptural understandings.

According to Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there exist roughly 43,000 Christian denominations worldwide in 2012. That is up from 500 in 1800 and 39,000 in 2008 and this number is expected to grow to 55,000 by 2025.
Currently, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary estimates that a new Christian denomination is formed every 10.5 hours, or 2.3 denominations a day.

Comparing Christian Denominations - Beliefs
salvation
Anglican/Episcopal - "We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by Faith only, is a most wholesome Doctrine..."
Roman Catholic - Salvation is received by virtue of the sacrament of Baptism. It may be lost by mortal sin and may be regained by Penance.
http://christianity.about.com/od/denomi ... efs2_2.htm

Means of Salvation
This article seeks to answer the question asked by a prison guard in the New Testament book of Acts: "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" The answer the apostles gave to that man was fairly straightforward: "Repent and believe." However, the many biblical passages that touch on the question of "how to be saved," along with various other influences, have led to more complex thought on the subject.

For instance, the New Testament seems to teach the importance of both faith and works for salvation, so the further questions arise: Are faith, good works, or both necessary for salvation? Faith in what or whom? How do faith and works relate to each other?

In addition, New Testament authors and other Christian theologians have taught that individuals must repent, believe, and otherwise work for their own salvation, but also that salvation is not entirely a human enterprise - God takes an active role, helping humans to be saved through his grace. Some Christians have even taught that humans are so helpless in their state of sin that God most do all the work, or at least take the first step. This raises the complicated issue of how human free will and effort relates to God's grace and predestination.
http://www.religionfacts.com/christiani ... vation.htm

Hmmm, should I jump in and interject in this discussion?

RickD wrote:As far as the way a believer lives, then I agree. But, I also believe that one can't "give back" one's salvation, as others assert. I'm not saying that God makes a believer keep his salvation, overriding one's free will. But, I'm saying once one is saved, one's free will will align with God's will.

...one's free will will align with God's will - Interesting how God's Grace works...

And I am thankful that God's Grace works
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B. W. wrote:...one's free will will align with God's will - Interesting how God's Grace works...

Very interesting you say that Bryan. In another thread I'm following (different forum, yes, I'm straying ) the subject was on whether or not we will have free will in heaven. And the answer given (from a man I highly respect) was exactly what you said, i.e. of course we will have free will and it will perfectly align with His.

RickD wrote:
KBC, if you assert the first part, "The free gift of salvation is entirely dependant on faith in Christ", and end it there, I agree. But when you add "has no dependancy on our active participation in the process", I disagree.
There is no active participation with salvation. Faith in Christ is all the "participation" one needs. If one can't gain salvation by works, how can one lose salvation by lack of works? Understand?

KBC wrote:
No.
you cannot have both a dependancy on active participation (which is works / obedience) and at the same time no dependancy . Both are not possible to be true at the same time.

Hi KBC. Let me see if I can explain why I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what you mean in #1, but I just disagree with the way you presented it. You wrote:

1) The free gift of salvation is entirely dependant on faith in Christ and has no dependancy on our active participation in the process.

I agree that salvation is a free gift, and is dependent on ones faith in Christ. But, the way you worded the second half is where I can't agree. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but the way it's written, I can't agree with it. I understood the second half here:

and has no dependancy on our active participation in the process.

to mean that the free gift of salvation has no dependency on a believer's active participation in doing something to gain or keep salvation. I don't see any process that a believer has to participate in for salvation. So, I see you saying that a believer's participation in the process of salvation doesn't have an effect on the believer's salvation. I'm saying there is NO PROCESS. It may seem like nitpicking on my part, but if you're trying to narrow my belief down to one of two choices, then I can't agree with either choice if I don't agree fully with the way I understand it to be written.

If you had written the choices like this, keeping #2 the same, but changing #1:

1) The free gift of salvation is offered to all. In order to accept this free gift, one must place his faith on who Jesus Christ is, and what He has done. Salvation is by God's grace through faith alone.
2) The free gift of salvation is dependant on both faith in Christ 'AND' a dependancy on our active participation in becoming righteous.

I could agree in principle with #1.(without getting into the age of accountability, those who never heard the gospel, etc.)

obeying commandments or works or participation as i am intending active participation to be used in position one is either required actions on the part of a believer or it is not and such performance either has an effect on salvation or it does not and you are plainly stating in this sentence that such actions are not required nor affects salvation. So I don't see any difference to the meaning intended by me in position one and what you are stating. I am clearly defining participation as works or obeyance relative to commandment keeping as defined by the thread for following mosaic laws. So even if you have a different accepted definition of active participation the fact is that I am defining the range of meaning I have intended it to apply to in respect to the thread topic. So if you agree that works has no affect on salvation then you are satisfying the requirements of the range of meaning I am intending to convey as active participation in position one.

I agree that a believer's works has no bearing on gaining or keeping salvation. A believer's works are the fruit of one who is saved, and going through the process of sanctification.

If such were true about a belivevers free will aligning with God's will then every believer would be of one body and one belief and surely we can all clearly see that there are many who profess a belief in Christ but hold major foundational differences in their beliefs. So minimally one denomination or sect is not saved and in posession of the HS guiding their understanding since God does not cause chaos. It is one message one people one nation under God.

KBC, I didn't mean to say that at the moment of salvation, every believer's will is aligned with God's will. The lifelong process of sanctification entails God's aligning a believer's will to His own will. I don't believe our wills will ever be fully aligned with God's in this lifetime. As far as "denominations" being saved, I don't see that as scripturally accurate. Individuals who place their faith in Christ are saved, and have the indwelling HS, regardless of their denomination or non-denomination. The one people, body, the church, the bride of Christ, etc., is made up of individual believers from within and outside all man-made denominations. The one thing they all have in common is faith in Christ.

Believe me Rick I have talked with a number of 'believers' whose message is just as sincere as anyones here and they are convinced that their foundational beliefs are the 'ONLY' correct way of understanding the biblical message and I cannot judge their POV without looking at all sides.
I stand outside of belief on these points looking in and trying to determine which understanding has the correct division of Gods word and I cannot base correctness on the sincerity of the believer. I must initially treat all as possibly right and equally as possibly wrong.

I understand what you're saying KBC. You need to thoroughly examine everything before you come to any complete conclusion. As far as specific foundational beliefs that differ with orthodox Christian beliefs, if you have any that you have questions about, please post them so we can work through them with each other.

For instance, the New Testament seems to teach the importance of both faith and works for salvation, so the further questions arise: Are faith, good works, or both necessary for salvation? Faith in what or whom? How do faith and works relate to each other?

KBC, it is my belief that only faith is necessary for salvation. And works, pleasing to God, come as a direct result of that salvation, and God's sanctification. Simply put:
1) Salvation through faith
then
2) Through the work of the HS in the believer, works are produced.

this is different from others who believe:

Salvation is obtained through faith in Christ plus keeping the law, or plus being a good person.

So, as far as if good works are necessary for salvation. Good works(those pleasing to God) are a result(fruit) of one who is saved. Where one is saved, good works will follow.
I hope that helps.

In addition, New Testament authors and other Christian theologians have taught that individuals must repent, believe, and otherwise work for their own salvation, but also that salvation is not entirely a human enterprise

As I've said before, I believe individuals must repent(change one's understanding of who Christ is and what He has done), and believe. Then salvation is assured. That doesn't mean that a believer's life is without work. It just means the work is not done to keep one's salvation assured.

According to Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there exist roughly 43,000 Christian denominations worldwide in 2012. That is up from 500 in 1800 and 39,000 in 2008 and this number is expected to grow to 55,000 by 2025.
Currently, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary estimates that a new Christian denomination is formed every 10.5 hours, or 2.3 denominations a day.

I'd say you've touched on a good point. Some believers even deny a literal Satan. He is the Father of lies, and a deceiver. His goal is to steal, kill and destroy. Often we see this as some sadistic evil, easily recognized. Man's perversions need no assistance from Satan. However, Satan is a much more cunning adversary, and I'd say that religion is his biggest weapon. IMO, religiosity is the single biggest detriment to souls today. If you look within the sects of Christianity you will find various opinions on soteriology. I'd say the devil desires nothing more than to confuse our understanding of scripture and undermine the simple teaching of Salvation. Just last night I watched a program by Alex McFarland where he interviewed a long tenured professor at Liberty university. The topic was Lordship salvation. I nearly wept to hear the incompetence of how the Gospel was presented by those claiming to be experts on the matter.

Ultimately what is the object of faith?
Some people's hope for salvation is belonging to the church. They see that if they are part of a lineage, or religious hierarchy, they are part of the church. Of course they will say that their faith is in Christ, but being part of the physical church is how that is done. They will claim their history and direct connection through time, and even responsibility for the scriptures themselves. The problem is that Jesus himself shot down any such notions. God preserved His word through an apostate nation, destroyed temples, captivity, and even outright idolatry. He then rebukes those people for lauding such claims towards ancestry. Paul says that those intrusted with the oracles of God have been cut off.
Object of faith: Christ plus church, sacraments, etc.
-Some believe that a commitment is required along with belief. That someone must sincerely desire to forsake their sins and pledge to follow Christ. If they are not willing to surrender their lives to Christ, then they aren't being sincere and they can't be saved. Object of faith: Jesus, plus one's sincerity.
-Others believe that salvation is secure, but have no real assurance unless they persevere till the end. If works don't follow belief then the belief wasn't really belief to begin with. Object of Faith: Jesus plus persevering till the end. (Backdoor works salvation.)
-And others believe in the assurance of salvation but not the security. If they believe and continue in the faith, then they will be saved. But if they should fall away from their Christian walk, then they could forfeit their salvation. Object of faith: Jesus plus continued faith and works.
All of the above are actually similar. They are picking nits. They all believe that salvation is contingent of the commitment of the person and their obedience to meet certain requirements. Performance either follows belief, or is required in some form or fashion. This is in one sense similar to all world religions. IMO, it distorts the cross of Christ through traditions, systems, etc.
And all though each claim the work of Christ, they cheapen grace and put a burden on man.

The only truth that comes from the Bible that makes it completely unique is that man really is completely hopeless to save himself. That a person can be both assured and secure, and not by any performance of their own. People do need to repent. The word repent means afterthought. It doesn't mean to forsake sin. In fact the word metanoia has no inherent connection with the word sin at all. It is an abused word that has been completely redefined. The error has occurred for so long that is infiltrated nearly every single one of these denominations you mention.
How do you know you are saved? Which one of these is not like the other:
-I joined the church
-I performed the sacraments.
-I was water baptized
-I prayed the sinner's prayer
-I asked Jesus into my heart.
-I made Jesus Lord of my life.
-I went forward in the service.
-I filled out a card at the Billy Graham crusade.
-I trust that the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ alone saves me from sin. That and nothing else.

People want to argue about works. I promise you, the people who think their works contribute are not walking in the works God prepared for them. They are walking in the power of their flesh, because in their minds they think (in some form or fashion) that if they don't perform, God is waiting behind a wall to club them over the head and throw them into Hell. It is by some power of guilt or fear. The reason Christ died is because our performance sucked. We could not pull it off. And people want to believe that church, religious performance, penance, etc. is going to somehow prove to God that they are sincere enough, or committed enough to be worthy of the blood of Christ. It is in some form or fashion trying to pay off God for His free gift. What an insult. To attempt to offer God your dirty rags for the riches of grace in Christ. Most people will not see this because they are so wrapped up in their religion. The grace, mercy and riches of Christ are at their fingertips, but they refuse to trust Christ alone. Their own nature demands that they must contribute. They believe they must bloody their knees as the crawl up the temple steps. Nonsense.
True Christianity stands opposed to all other religion. Jesus really is that radical.

The call for free Grace is not opposed to the Lordship of Christ. If Christ isn't Lord then grace is meaningless. But no believer can obey or submit themselves to Christ until they trust Christ ALONE and nothing else. Everything else is religion.

RickD wrote:Hi KBC. Let me see if I can explain why I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what you mean in #1, but I just disagree with the way you presented it. You wrote:

1) The free gift of salvation is entirely dependant on faith in Christ and has no dependancy on our active participation in the process.

I agree that salvation is a free gift, and is dependent on ones faith in Christ. But, the way you worded the second half is where I can't agree. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but the way it's written, I can't agree with it. I understood the second half here:

and has no dependancy on our active participation in the process.

to mean that the free gift of salvation has no dependency on a believer's active participation in doing something to gain or keep salvation. I don't see any process that a believer has to participate in for salvation. So, I see you saying that a believer's participation in the process of salvation doesn't have an effect on the believer's salvation. I'm saying there is NO PROCESS. It may seem like nitpicking on my part, but if you're trying to narrow my belief down to one of two choices, then I can't agree with either choice if I don't agree fully with the way I understand it to be written.

Ok now that we have established an understanding that both can identify with I will expand past the foundational point and begin to apply the scriptures that appear on the surface as opposing this foundation and see how they are rationalised from your end.

First I will restate the common foundation to ensure we continue to agree;

The free gift of salvation is given upon the acceptance by the believer in Christ as the only one who can save them from their initial unsaved state. Once a believer accepts Christ in this regard then all past sins are forgiven and there is nothing that the believer can do past the instant point of being saved to change their saved status.

So here is a sprinkling of scriptures which admonish "a believer" to perform actions in very specific ways;

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Matt 7:24 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Matt 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Now if as you assert that a believer is saved in an instant and there is no action they can perform past this point which can affect the status of the free gift of salvation then why are the believers in the biblical account admonished to perform actions past the point that they are accounted as believers?

If no actions past the point of becoming a believer has any affect on the instant salvation given then why are there scriptures indicating that some actions are still required as stated by both Christ and the apostles?

Here is an admonishment by Christ that seems to clearly state that we are required to do something;

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
Luk 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

If no actions on our part have any affect on salvation then wouldn't these verses be a waste of time to voice or write? Christ has stated that we should love our neighbor even as he has loved us. So what happens if we don't perform this action? If we see someone in need and choose not to help and persistently choose not to according to the intent meant this will have no bearing on the salvation given when we first accepted Christ? Can we go to our grave persisting in actions that are clearly wrong without any care for the status of our salvation?

This thread is a juggernaut !
I admire your tenaciousness !

K,
All you are doing here is proof texting and then offering no exegesis. You have continued to do this ad-naseum. You've been rebuked by myself and others on this, and you stubbornly refuse the correction to permit you the proper lens by which to read the scriptures. This shows me there is a work of pride here. You can continue prooftexting, but you refuse to acknowledge that this is no way by which to rightly divide the word of truth. So you can quote scrupture. Great, so can Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. So, what good is it to offer any explanation. You claim that you are just trying to learn, yet you seem to hold to your eisegesis and are anchored by legalists presuppositions.

If no actions past the point of becoming a believer has any affect on the instant salvation given then why are there scriptures indicating that some actions are still required as stated by both Christ and the apostles?

If you want that question answered, then perhaps you ought to stop elephant hurling prooftexts.

Your major problem here is that you, like so many, conflate being saved to being a disciple. Well, the Bible doesn't present discipleship this way. Discipleship has a cost. Surrender, sacrifice.
Look at Paul's teaching in Ephesians. He spends the first three chapters teaching the believer who they are and what they have, In Christ. Then and only then does he go into instruction on living. Why? "to live a life worthy of the calling you have received." Eph. 4:1
The NT offers the believer instructions on living out their faith. Trusting that salvation is faith in Christ alone is not a case against Holy living, or a case for sinning. It is a case for the sufficiency of Christ. Fix your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith.

If no actions on our part have any affect on salvation then wouldn't these verses be a waste of time to voice or write? Christ has stated that we should love our neighbor even as he has loved us. So what happens if we don't perform this action? If we see someone in need and choose not to help and persistently choose not to according to the intent meant this will have no bearing on the salvation given when we first accepted Christ? Can we go to our grave persisting in actions that are clearly wrong without any care for the status of our salvation?

We should love our neighbor. Heck, the unregenerate sinner ought to love his neighbor. There are many things a believer ought and should do. That is exactly why Jesus gave us Paul, and a majority of his writing is instructions on Christian living. If Christians just naturally did the Christian thing, then Paul could have saved a bunch of ink.

Here is an admonishment by Christ that seems to clearly state that we are required to do something;

Regarding Luke 6, by what exegetical method do you have authority to insert yourself or anyone else into the "we?"
What you are doing here is trying to justify contradictions. Following your handling of the scripture, you create contradictions. There is no question that the Bible presents belief as the condition by which one receives regeneration. The Bible also includes various instructions. You presume that any instruction applies to all, without any consideration to audience or context. And you presume that any instruction is by default a requirement for one's personal salvation and security. That is question begging. Regarding Luke 6. Our solid foundation is Christ. His life, His death, His burial, His resurrection. Why do you want to build off another's foundation and one of works of the law? That is death. You seem so focused on what a person does or doesn't do, and not on what Christ did. You want to serve Christ as Lord? Good, as that is His will for your life. But you cannot do so until you abandon any thought that you have to go beyond faith and add to the work of the cross. Without faith it is impossible to please God. He has prepared works for you, but if you ever want to walk in them, then you need to repent of the idea that salvation is contingent on your performance. Otherwise the Bible, as you read it, will be littered with contradiciton. You will have no peace, and I feel safe in saying that you do not have peace in your inner man.

If no actions on our part have any affect on salvation then wouldn't these verses be a waste of time to voice or write? Christ has stated that we should love our neighbor even as he has loved us. So what happens if we don't perform this action? If we see someone in need and choose not to help and persistently choose not to according to the intent meant this will have no bearing on the salvation given when we first accepted Christ? Can we go to our grave persisting in actions that are clearly wrong without any care for the status of our salvation?

No man can love their neighbor as Christ loved us, but we can try.
ON the flip side of this is doing all that is asked of us BUT with the intent to be saved, not out of love.
What about that?
IMO, the issue that was had was the intent not the actions.
The people of Christ's day ( and after) thought if they did this, and followed that, and kept this day and that, they they would be saved.
They did it TO BE saved, to be worthy, not out of love, not for their neighbor, not for God per say, but for themselves.
Their intent was what compromised even the greatest of act.
Now, with full knowledge that salvation is a gift GIVEN and NOT earned, we how feel that we are saved, express that loved that God has given US, with love for others, not to be saved but because we ARE saved, not because we have to but because we love to.
The danger of works based salvation or faith is that it is compromised by the intent behind what is being done and believed.

I don't believe in Christ to be saved, I didn't decide to believe in Christ so I COULD be saved.
I believed because love for Christ compelled me to.
I believe because I love Christ and Our Father because they loved me first and all that I know of love is from them.
I give and care for others because I love them as my brothers and sisters and because I love Our Father and Our Lord and that love compels me to love others.
Not because I have to, but because I love.

jlay wrote:K,
All you are doing here is proof texting and then offering no exegesis. You have continued to do this ad-naseum. You've been rebuked by myself and others on this, and you stubbornly refuse the correction to permit you the proper lens by which to read the scriptures.

I have not asked you to answer my questions. If my questions appear to be in a form you don't like then don't answer them. If I was here here to teach a belief then I am certainly wasting my time since it was clear long ago that no one here is changing their beliefs nor might I add have I ever pushed my understanding as a belief.
You can certainly talk about "proof texting and exegesis" to your hearts content but I am simply another human that has read the english words as they were given from the book. I am not a master in english or historical writings or any such expert in these subjects so your accusations don't make much sense to me. You can ultimately do two things you can perceive my intentions as an evil one or you can accept that maybe I don't know what the right answers are and I am asking things in this way because thats how it makes sense to me to ask it.

A leopard does not change his spots. You can see the type of person I am from my 3D postings. Does it sound like an evil person trying to convince others of an untruth? In my experience I have not seen anyone convincingly argue for something and fight against it at the same time. I would say that all the postings I have done in that thread have a single focus on pointing out the absolute reality that there is God and we owe our very existence to his divine intent.

So jlay the simple fact here is this. I am not here to offend anyone. If you don't like my method of questioning then I wil stop posting my Christianity questions in this forum and seek a different avenue to get the answers I seek. To me there is only loss when your offending others. I prefer to not be responsibe for being offensive. So I will leave this up to you. If my questions are offending you then say so and I will absolutely stop posting any Christianity questions here.

Note that I will still continue my support for the 3D thread regardless. Unless of course any Christian asserts that it offends them.