"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
)There is an awful lot more evidence for evolution and deep time than there is for any of the bible stories, but....Storyteller wrote:Hi Dazed
It is, kinda.
Ken has already said he believes he doesnt believe he chooses what to believe.
I think we do, especially when it comes to God.
(Oh, and im on a mission to convert Ken
Just semantics? Same-same if you deny you've been hit by a car when you have, or believe you are down and busted up when the car missed you?PaulSacramento wrote:Choice is very simple.
Either we have a choice in what we believe or we don't.
I believe we DO have a choice.
We choose to believe the various types of evidence and facts that lead us to conclude A, B or C.
If you prefer the term "decide" or some other term instead of choosing that's fine.
It is also just semantics.
maybe, but there is that but isn't thereAudie wrote:There is an awful lot more evidence for evolution and deep time than there is for any of the bible stories, but....Storyteller wrote:Hi Dazed
It is, kinda.
Ken has already said he believes he doesnt believe he chooses what to believe.
I think we do, especially when it comes to God.
(Oh, and im on a mission to convert Ken
To me, it does.zacchaeus wrote:Yep. Audie and story... Actually many believe it all aligns.
I’ve got a feeling we have different definitions of what it means to choose to believe. In an effort to prevent us from talking past each other let me get a few things straight first so I can know where you are coming from. Before you said we choose to believe based upon evidence, reasoning, or personal experience. Is this required? Or do you believe you can still choose to believe something without evidence, reason, or personal experience.PaulSacramento wrote:That is not what I asked you Ken.Kenny wrote:If Bill Gates (the richest man on Earth) offered to give you a billion dollars if you could choose to believe you could fly like a bird, could you convince yourself that you could do it? I can't; I may be able to pretend I have convinced myself in order to get the money, but deep down I would know I was lying. If I were able to choose what I beleive, I would be able to do thisPaulSacramento wrote:No Ken, you are misunderstanding what choosing to believe means.Kenny wrote:My view is a bit closer to Audie's view on the issue where as I don't believe I choose what I believe. For me belief happens after reason and logic demands it; not before. While true; a person can choose to listen evidence that supports his agenda and he can choose to ignore evidence that may refute it, but he is still going with the evidence he receives even though he has control over what he receives. Hope that makes sense.Storyteller wrote:Ken...
do you actually want to believe in God?
Ken
Either you choose what to believe or don't believe in ( based on evidence, reasoning, personal experience, etc) or you are saying that you have NO CHOICE in what to believe or don't.
So which is it?
Ken
Especially when it comes to God? Or only when it comes to God. IOW does choosing to believe apply to everything in your life? Things like mechanics, politics, economics, health, safety, etc. IOW does choosing to believe apply to your life outside theism?Storyteller wrote:Hi Dazed
It is, kinda.
Ken has already said he believes he doesnt believe he chooses what to believe.
I think we do, especially when it comes to God.
(Oh, and im on a mission to convert Ken
Yes and I would totally understand if nobody believed me; as a matter of fact I don't think I would even expect anyone to believe mePaulSacramento wrote:Kenny wrote:At first I would probably assume I was just hearing things, but eventually after talking back and forth, I would probably be convinced what I was hearing was realStoryteller wrote:I get thatKenny wrote:Truth be told, I don't know exactly how I would react. I can tell you how I may hope I'd react, but I've never experienced something like that; the only thing I've experienced were a bunch of men as flawed and imperfect as I am, claiming to speak for God telling me God says this and God says that, and to them I react with skeptcism because the way I see it, if God can talk to them he could talk to me.Storyteller wrote:Kind of. I think.
If you heard God, let`s say just for a moment, you actually hear the voice of God. He tells you it is God. Would you then think, okay God is real, He is there. Or, would you think you were going mad, hearing voices?
Ken
So tell me how you hope you would react.
Ken
You do realize that, even though that would be proof to you, it would not even be evidence for another, right?
If you are 100% convinced of something, I don't understand how anybody can just "Whilly Nilly" choose to believe otherwise. Do you?Dazedandconfused wrote:Hi Storyteller,Storyteller wrote:Nu-uh.Dazedandconfused wrote:Ken wrote:Hi Ken,If Bill Gates (the richest man on Earth) offered to give you a billion dollars if you could choose to believe you could fly like a bird, could you convince yourself that you could do it? I can't; I may be able to pretend I have convinced myself in order to get the money, but deep down I would know I was lying. If I were able to choose what I beleive, I would be able to do this
They are talking about choosing to believe that God exists, or choosing to believe He doesn't. They are asking if after looking at everything, all that you know exists, if you choose to believe God doesn't exist.
Atheists believe God doesn't exist. Christians believe God exists. Both choose to believe what they believe.
I'm talking about belief in anything.
I got the impression that this tread was about Christianity, and belief in God. And from what PaulSacramento posted here:I assumed the conversation was about whether someone chooses to believe in God, or chooses to believe God doesn't exist.No Ken, you are misunderstanding what choosing to believe means.
Either you choose what to believe or don't believe in ( based on evidence, reasoning, personal experience, etc) or you are saying that you have NO CHOICE in what to believe or don't.
So which is it?
But yes,
The idea that we choose to believe in anything, is the same idea. Do we choose to believe whatever we believe?
I'd say of course we do. But that's not the same as what Ken was saying about choosing to believe something(like flying), then being able to do it just because we choose to believe it.
So Ken,
Whatever you believe, do you choose to believe it?